AFCI Situation

[kwired]

I rarely find it that convenient and more than a couple of splices in a panel looks tacky. I'd much rather put an 18x18 junction above the panel and bring everything in nice and pretty. It pays better, gains the respect of customers and inspectors, and gives you something really pretty to take a picture of for your portfolio.

Nothing stopping you if that is what you wish to do. Is the 18x18 box worth it? Many times there is limited number of conductors that may need extended. You either make them look nice in the panel or in the 18x18 box, or you leave a rats nest in either box.

Don't put too much into making it look nice. After the cover goes on, it does not get seen much anymore.

I have seen some of the neatest looking jobs that still are not safe. A good inspector knows there is more to the job than being able to route conductors.

 

[ptonsparky]

210.12(B)"...modified, replaced or extended..."

I read it as "you touch it, you protect it". Fortunately our inspectors do not interpret it that way.

 

[ritelec]

210.12(B)"...modified, ..."

I read it as "you touch it, you protect it".

Even if you move a conductor 1" over to fit into the new panel KO, would this also not be modify.

This Modify word is too big!



OUCH

 

[ptonsparky]

Even if you move a conductor 1" over to fit into the new panel KO, would this also not be modify.

This Modify word is too big!



OUCH

To much attention is being paid to "extended" and not enough to "modified".

 

[petersonra]

Nothing is wrong with upgrading a panel, but they connected the existing 100 amp wire directly into the 200 amp main. I'm not sure I could have written it any more clearly.

It's a Square D Homeline panel. They don't ever come with the bond screw installed. Without the bond screw, the cabinet (and therefore anything connected to the cabinet) isn't bonded to the neutral.

I probably have not used a Homeline panel. I mostly use the Siemens ones these days when I find that a small panelboard makes sense inside a control panel. Used to use Square D where I worked before but the Siemens panels are cheaper and easier to get for us because they are stocked by our primary electrical supplier who is about a mile away from us.

I still see nothing inherently wrong with hooking it up to the 200A main. the main is not protecting the service wires anyway. it only protects the PB and acts as a disconnecting means.

 

[kwired]

I still see nothing inherently wrong with hooking it up to the 200A main. the main is not protecting the service wires anyway. it only protects the PB and acts as a disconnecting means.

Although there are cases where you can have service conductors smaller than the total rating of service disconnecting means, for installations with a single service disconnecting means - the main is providing overcurrent protection for the service conductors. It will not protect service conductors from short circuits and ground faults, but if you put 200 amps of load on a 100 amp breaker it is supposed to trip at some point. If you put 200 amps of load on a 100 amp conductor, that conductor is going to operate at an elevated temperature.

 

[kennydmeek]

Nothing stopping you if that is what you wish to do. Is the 18x18 box worth it? Many times there is limited number of conductors that may need extended. You either make them look nice in the panel or in the 18x18 box, or you leave a rats nest in either box.

Don't put too much into making it look nice. After the cover goes on, it does not get seen much anymore.

I have seen some of the neatest looking jobs that still are not safe. A good inspector knows there is more to the job than being able to route conductors.

A good inspector will also be annoyed if he has to spend half an hour seeing where the conductors are going, and building trust with them can save you lots of time down the road.....and if there's a rat's nest in the panel when you come back next year to install the hot tub sub you're going to be annoyed too...

$30 and an extra hour is easy to wrap into a price....

 

[kwired]

A good inspector will also be annoyed if he has to spend half an hour seeing where the conductors are going, and building trust with them can save you lots of time down the road.....and if there's a rat's nest in the panel when you come back next year to install the hot tub sub you're going to be annoyed too...

$30 and an extra hour is easy to wrap into a price....

There is a difference between rats nest, neat, and perfect. Rats nest can actually add more time to the project sometimes, neat is still easy to trace, perfect is time consuming for some, and just a little extra effort for others. If perfect is too time consuming to achieve I am ok with just neat. Like I said - after you put the cover on nobody sees it anyway.

If inspector sees it is really neat but does not look at what really needs looking at - he did not really do his job.

Why does an inspector need to trace the wires in the first place - he is an inspector not a troubleshooter. White wires (generally) go on the neutral bus and colored wires go on the breakers. If a GFCI or AFCI does not have the returning neutral connected correctly it probably does not operate - again not the inspectors problem to find out why. He can easily tell if a 20 amp breaker has 12 awg wire connected to it even with a rats nest installation. If he runs into a 12 AWG on a 30 amp breaker he needs to check out what it goes to - might be acceptable for the AC. A look at AC nameplate and the panel directory is what most inspectors are going to do and not trace the entire circuit.

 

[kennydmeek]

There is a difference between rats nest, neat, and perfect. Rats nest can actually add more time to the project sometimes, neat is still easy to trace, perfect is time consuming for some, and just a little extra effort for others. If perfect is too time consuming to achieve I am ok with just neat. Like I said - after you put the cover on nobody sees it anyway.

If inspector sees it is really neat but does not look at what really needs looking at - he did not really do his job.

Why does an inspector need to trace the wires in the first place - he is an inspector not a troubleshooter. White wires (generally) go on the neutral bus and colored wires go on the breakers. If a GFCI or AFCI does not have the returning neutral connected correctly it probably does not operate - again not the inspectors problem to find out why. He can easily tell if a 20 amp breaker has 12 awg wire connected to it even with a rats nest installation. If he runs into a 12 AWG on a 30 amp breaker he needs to check out what it goes to - might be acceptable for the AC. A look at AC nameplate and the panel directory is what most inspectors are going to do and not trace the entire circuit.

For the install itself the inspector doesn't need to trace wires. When you come back around and put in those kitchen, hot tub or addition circuits he IS going to want to see where it's tied in...and if it's sloppy will generally ask.."who the hell did this?"...and we have a nice little chuckle together about the hack that was there before..:angel:

 

[kennydmeek]

For the install itself the inspector doesn't need to trace wires. When you come back around and put in those kitchen, hot tub or addition circuits he IS going to want to see where it's tied in...and if it's sloppy will generally ask.."who the hell did this?"...and we have a nice little chuckle together about the hack that was there before..:angel:

.....or HIS predecessor who inspected it..

 

[Speshulk]

I'm thinking most panels are that way (if not all).

How are those homelines? Never installed one.


Been using the regular sq. d's (QO) but as of lately have been considering a switch to Cutler Hammer.

IMO they're the best out there after the QO. Tough to bid competitively if you're using QO.

Only drawback is since it's "Home"line, there's no 3 phase equipment.

 

[Speshulk]

I still see nothing inherently wrong with hooking it up to the 200A main. the main is not protecting the service wires anyway. it only protects the PB and acts as a disconnecting means.

Sorry, but you're wrong. Along with protecting the panel, the main keeps the electrical system as a whole from drawing more than the service entrance wires can handle. Also keep in mind that the #2 aluminum that is most commonly used to feed a residential service isn't rated at 100 amps, but it falls under the exception for use in a dwelling.

 

[kennydmeek]

IMO they're the best out there after the QO. Tough to bid competitively if you're using QO.

.

I always let them know they're getting QO and how good it is. That's all I use and I generally don't have a hard time selling it...as long as I get to speak to the consumer.

 

[kwired]

IMO they're the best out there after the QO. Tough to bid competitively if you're using QO.

Only drawback is since it's "Home"line, there's no 3 phase equipment.

Less accessories than ther is for the QO line also. For the average dwelling most of those additional accessories are not necessary though. Other drawback is a larger space is needed for larger frame breakers, and the neutral buss is right at the foot of the breakers and even behind AFCI/GFCI breakers

 

[nysprkdude]

NYS Requirements

NYS Requirements

At a meeting of Regional Electrical Inspectors with Department of State officials in attendance, subsequent to the adoption of the 2008 NEC, which is the standard presently accepted by NYS, the question arose regarding installation of Arc-fault circuit breakers during the replacement or upgrade of a service.

The following was issued:

New York State Department of State Memorandum dated 03 February 2011 from Cheryl A. Fischer, P.E. Assistant Director for Code Interpretation, as it pertains to Ground-fault and arc-fault circuit-interrupter protection:

This is to clarify whether the replacement of an electrical panel box requires the existing breakers to be replaced with arc-fault breakers. NO. Residential Code of New York State Section E3802.11, Arc-fault-interrupter protection is applicable to NEW installations.

(For the sake of brevity, I am skipping the path used to get to the following but can provide such as reiterated in the memo if necessary.)

Section J608.4, Ground-fault and arc-fault circuit-interrupter protection shall be provided on NEWLY INSTALLED RECEPTACLE OUTLETS as required by
Section RE3802.

It goes on further to state that: "There is no code section that requires the EXISTING circuits to ground-fault circuit-interrupters, only new circuits. There are configurations where old wiring cannot handle the arc-faults and cause unexpected trips."

Hopefully that answers the question.

 

[kwired]

At a meeting of Regional Electrical Inspectors with Department of State officials in attendance, subsequent to the adoption of the 2008 NEC, which is the standard presently accepted by NYS, the question arose regarding installation of Arc-fault circuit breakers during the replacement or upgrade of a service.

The following was issued:

New York State Department of State Memorandum dated 03 February 2011 from Cheryl A. Fischer, P.E. Assistant Director for Code Interpretation, as it pertains to Ground-fault and arc-fault circuit-interrupter protection:

This is to clarify whether the replacement of an electrical panel box requires the existing breakers to be replaced with arc-fault breakers. NO. Residential Code of New York State Section E3802.11, Arc-fault-interrupter protection is applicable to NEW installations.

(For the sake of brevity, I am skipping the path used to get to the following but can provide such as reiterated in the memo if necessary.)

Section J608.4, Ground-fault and arc-fault circuit-interrupter protection shall be provided on NEWLY INSTALLED RECEPTACLE OUTLETS as required by
Section RE3802.

It goes on further to state that: "There is no code section that requires the EXISTING circuits to ground-fault circuit-interrupters, only new circuits. There are configurations where old wiring cannot handle the arc-faults and cause unexpected trips."

Hopefully that answers the question.

Disregarding the controversy of whether or not AFCI does what the MFR's claim they will do - maybe they trip on older wiring because there is a problem that needs addressed in the older wiring. Neutral to ground faults will trip them and is likely one of the biggest "nuisance" trip causes. Neutral to ground faults is not something that is desired to have in your wiring system even though standard overcurrent devices do not respond to that condition.

 

[renosteinke]

Ugh!

First off, I resent the assumption, the false logic, that leads one to assert that if someone has a different opinion they must be 'on the take.' If this were a phone call, my finger would start moving towards the disconnect button the moment that sort of drivel started.

AFCI's and panel changes / service upgrades have been debated since AFCI's came about. It's nearly uniformly recognized that when you change the service, you change the service - rather than 'modify' an existing circuit. Carry that 'modify' idea to its' and, and simply changing a light bulb is 'modifying' the circuit. That's absurd.

More to the point, there are numerous other changes that need to be made when you 'modify' a circuit. Many of these changes have the effect of making it simpler to just add a new circuit. Old houses just were not wired to the same rule book. This does not mean they are no longer safe; rather, it shows how our expectations have changed.

Without turning this post into a book, these other changes affect multi-wire circuits, GFCI protection, and dedicated circuits. You simply can't apply them to an older home without doing a complete-gut remodel.

As far as AFCI's are concerned, it's the neutral that is the joker in the deck. Older homes typically 'share' the neutral between two circuits - a situation that caused AFCI issues. If the house has knob & tube wiring, it is even more likely that the neutral has been used by multiple circuits. The neutral may even be switched. More AFCI fun.

So ... as nice an idea it may be to add AFCI's when you do a panel swap, in practical terms it's like trying to apply today's car standards to your classic 1956 Thunderbird. Let me know where you put the airbag and catalytic converter.

 

[RICK NAPIER]

ritelec since your from Jersey I just wanted to point out that the Rehab code has addressed this issue in 5:23-6.8(d)3 Materials and Methods 210.12 is removed and in 5:23-6.9(a)26 New Building Elements it is only required on new circuirts with provisions.

5:23-6.8(d)3 Materials and Methods
3. All of Chapter 2 entitled "Wiring and Protection" except Sections 210.11 Branch Circuits Required,​

210.12 Arc-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection, 210.52 Dwelling Unit Receptacle Outlets, 210.60 Guest

Rooms or Guest Suites Dormitories and Similar Occupancies, 210.62 Show Windows, 210.63 Heating, Air​

Conditioning, and Refrigeration Equipment Outlet and 210.70 Lighting Outlets Required;

5:23-6.9(a)26 New Building Elements

26. As specified in Section 210.12 of the electrical subcode, Arc-Fault Circuit-Interrupter (AFCI)Protection shall be required for all newly installed (not replacement) branch circuits in dwelling units provided a listed combination type arc fault circuit interrupter breaker is available.
​

and further more the May 7, 2012 adoption of the 2011 NEC deleted some of 210.12

ii. Section 210.12(B), entitled “Branch Circuit Extensions or Modifications –
Dwelling Units,” is deleted in its entirety.
​

​

 

[ritelec]

ritelec since your from Jersey I just wanted to point out that the Rehab code has addressed this issue in 5:23-6.8(d)3 Materials and Methods 210.12 it is removed and in 5:23-6.9(a)26 New Building Elements it is only required on new circuirts with provisions.

5:23-6.8(d)3 Materials and Methods
3. All of Chapter 2 entitled "Wiring and Protection" except Sections 210.11 Branch Circuits Required,​

210.12 Arc-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection, 210.52 Dwelling Unit Receptacle Outlets, 210.60 Guest

Rooms or Guest Suites Dormitories and Similar Occupancies, 210.62 Show Windows, 210.63 Heating, Air​

Conditioning, and Refrigeration Equipment Outlet and 210.70 Lighting Outlets Required;

5:23-6.9(a)26 New Building Elements

26. As specified in Section 210.12 of the electrical subcode, Arc-Fault Circuit-Interrupter (AFCI)Protection shall be required for all newly installed (not replacement) branch circuits in dwelling units provided​

a listed combination type arc fault circuit interrupter breaker is available.

and further more the May 7, 2012 adoption of the 2011 NEC deleted some of 210.12

ii. Section 210.12(B), entitled ?Branch Circuit Extensions or Modifications ?
Dwelling Units,? is deleted in its entirety.

Thanks Rick,

When adding a receptacle from an existing non afci protected circuit, I'm assuming afci for that circuit and receptacle would not be required.......correct???

Thanks again.
Rich

 

[Sierrasparky]

Ugh!

First off, I resent the assumption, the false logic, that leads one to assert that if someone has a different opinion they must be 'on the take.' If this were a phone call, my finger would start moving towards the disconnect button the moment that sort of drivel started.

AFCI's and panel changes / service upgrades have been debated since AFCI's came about. It's nearly uniformly recognized that when you change the service, you change the service - rather than 'modify' an existing circuit. Carry that 'modify' idea to its' and, and simply changing a light bulb is 'modifying' the circuit. That's absurd.
An interesting opinion. You realize that most jurisdictions state that once you touch it ( meaning change) you need to follow the new code. Once you remove the old can you are no longer granfathered in.

More to the point, there are numerous other changes that need to be made when you 'modify' a circuit.
There are ? one could say adding pigtails is a modification.
Many of these changes have the effect of making it simpler to just add a new circuit. Old houses just were not wired to the same rule book. This does not mean they are no longer safe; rather, it shows how our expectations have changed.

Without turning this post into a book, these other changes affect multi-wire circuits, GFCI protection, and dedicated circuits. You simply can't apply them to an older home without doing a complete-gut remodel.

As far as AFCI's are concerned, it's the neutral that is the joker in the deck. Older homes typically 'share' the neutral between two circuits - a situation that caused AFCI issues. If the house has knob & tube wiring, it is even more likely that the neutral has been used by multiple circuits. The neutral may even be switched. More AFCI fun.

So ... as nice an idea it may be to add AFCI's when you do a panel swap, in practical terms it's like trying to apply today's car standards to your classic 1956 Thunderbird. Let me know where you put the airbag and catalytic converter.

If you are on the 2011 code it is pretty clear what the intentions of the NEC are. I have yet to see this report that Dennis Alwon claims that the NEC authors have stated to clarify what is already written.