AFCI Success Story with Knob & Tube (well, mostly)

[kwired]

And that's what concerns me about AFCIs. In theory as may be verified in the lab AFCIs show good results. But even though are they now required there has been little or no indication from the field that they are effective as are GFCIs.
Being involved with the release of the AFCI into the market I was excited about the technology but have been extremely disappointed that I haven't seen any real indication as to their actual contribution to the prevention of fires and saving lives as they have been on the market for more than 10 years now. When you consider the installed base now and the hundreds on thousands of dollars in expense I was looking for a few heroic stories about them except the countless complaints about nuisance tripping.

Well when it comes to tripping any device that shuts down a circuit, to most people all trip events are a nuisance, yet we may never know just how many of those "nuisance trips" actually were the device doing what it was intended to do, vs. responding to an otherwise acceptable condition.

 

[cowboyjwc]

I think that you got my point. GFCIs are more likely to be recognized as their use to be imperative but it is very difficult to show similar justification for the AFCI in the prevention of fires. If an AFCI were to have tripped why wouldn't the cause of trip be explored where it may be discovered that it prevented a fire.
Reporting such events may not be commonly done but the AFCI is such a unique device that if a the prevention of a fire was attributed to the AFCI it most likely would be publicized and we would know about it. With as many installations out there, there should be many more positive comments about it.

Well I hate to say it, but I think we can blame a lot of contractors for that. I can't tell you how many times I've heard contractors say that they got tired of resetting an AFCI and just replaced it with a regular breaker after they got inspection.

 

[GoldDigger]

Well I hate to say it, but I think we can blame a lot of contractors for that. I can't tell you how many times I've heard contractors say that they got tired of resetting an AFCI and just replaced it with a regular breaker after they got inspection.

Even if a dangerous condition is found, it is hard to say with any certainty that a fire would have resulted.
It would be easier to determine whether a fire that did result would have been prevented.
That would require that a fire did occur after an AFCI was replaced with a standard breaker.

 

[cowboyjwc]

Even if a dangerous condition is found, it is hard to say with any certainty that a fire would have resulted.
It would be easier to determine whether a fire that did result would have been prevented.
That would require that a fire did occur after an AFCI was replaced with a standard breaker.

I won't disagree with that.

 

[templdl]

Well I hate to say it, but I think we can blame a lot of contractors for that. I can't tell you how many times I've heard contractors say that they got tired of resetting an AFCI and just replaced it with a regular breaker after they got inspection.

This is exactly what is so frustrating. The AFCI hasn't been accepted buy the industry as being a legitimate addition to electrical safety. It somewhat like being black magic or, I'm from the government and I'm here to help you.
And what you get is the trouble of trying to figure out why AFCIs nuisance trip after they are installed and spending countless hour trying to figure out why.
Please keep in mind that an application and sales engineer I was always been a proponent of the AFCI but have since become very pessimistic.
If people believed that they did what they were designed to do and not give them lip service touting their greatness they are more than worth their cost.

 

[mbrooke]

Strange that I was a Beta sight in 1998 for AFCIs and......one tripped.
After ringing out the 20a circuit I found an EGC that was touching the neutral screw of a duplex outlet which had been there since the house was built. After being corrected I have never had on trip since.
I attribute that to a wiring error. Some may think this error was no big feel but when a neutral comes into contact with an EGC other than the SE it makes those neutral current available of any electrical device in that structure that uses the EGC as a ground.
The EGC had been allowed to become a current carrying conductor by sharing the neutral current..

And its a serious fire hazard should the main neutral come undone say at a subpanel. The only available path back to the main panel will be through that grounded neutral. I think the 30ma GFCI part of the AFCI is the best thing they offer.

 

[templdl]

And its a serious fire hazard should the main neutral come undone say at a subpanel. The only available path back to the main panel will be through that grounded neutral. I think the 30ma GFCI part of the AFCI is the best thing they offer.

You would think the simply using GFCIs would cover this issue.

 

[ptonsparky]

Well I hate to say it, but I think we can blame a lot of ismused on themontractors for that. I can't tell you how many times I've heard contractors say that they got tired of resetting an AFCI and just replaced it with a regular breaker after they got inspection.

I hear this too many times. I have BR AFCIs that trip almost everytime the vacum is used on them. Simple fix was to install a bathroom as needed. Cord reaches from them to all the carpeted areas. Planning is all it takes.