AFCI

jim dungar said:
They did a good job with GFCIs, their parameters lasted some 50 years, before they needed tweaking.
Click to expand...
I have no problem with GFCIs, just the expansion into places where they aren't needed and equipment that isn't compatible making for nuisance tripping. Like the old saying goes "if it aint broke don't fix it". Yes, they have been reliable for 50 years, so make equipment work with them not the other way around.

-Hal
 
hbiss said:
Yes, they have been reliable for 50 years, so make equipment work with them not the other way around.
Click to expand...
50 years ago we did not have the plethora of electronic motor controllers and power supplies, with their harmonics, that we have now. I can understand that some of our protection parameters may need to be tweaked. Kind of like we did with conductor ratings as insulation got better.
 
ActionDave said:
The appliances are fine. The problem is expanding GFCI protection where it's not needed
Click to expand...
Kinda sort of. I can think of one place where GFCI protection is needed and that is with pool pumps. If a pool pump won't play nice with existing GFCIs it should be up to the manufacturer to redesign the pump so it does, not expect the GFCIs to be redesigned. It's a lot easier to put power line filters in the back of a pump motor than it is in a little plastic GFCI housing.

Some here keep touting UL. Why is it that they don't delist all the stuff out there that nuisance trips GFCIs and make manufacturers take responsibility? That stuff should have been tested for this and shouldn't have been listed to begin with. Wonder how it was? :unsure:

-Hal
 
One thing I have noticed about this forum is you all really hate AFCI's.
The other thing I notice is the long time posters whom are clearly long time practicing master electricians, who do residential, like @hbiss or @LarryFine to name a few rarely if ever seem to be the ones with a AFCI problem on their own electrical work.
 
I've been pretty much retired since AFCIs became required like they are today. I do commercial also. Still, I have always avoided installing AFCIs if I could. But admittedly, the few I have installed were trouble free... as far as I know.

-Hal
 
readydave8 said:
50 years ago we didn't think GFCI'S were reliable
Click to expand...
If you think about the state of technology back then it makes you wonder how something like that could be made in a small package. 50 years ago we had the brick phone. As far as GFCIs are concerned, the design could only be rudimentary with what components were available. So, I could see the skepticism which might have even been founded.

-Hal
 
Industrial for most of my career so never had to deal a lot with AFCI's or GFCI's.

Put in several on a few residential side jobs over the years but never had any real issues with any of them.

Most Service calls I go on where a GFI or AFCI trips, there was a reason.

As far as the most recent incompatibility issues, there seems to be room for improvement on both sides.

Jap>
 
pipe_bender said:
One thing I have noticed about this forum is you all really hate AFCI's.
The other thing I notice is the long time posters whom are clearly long time practicing master electricians, who do residential, like @hbiss or @LarryFine to name a few rarely if ever seem to be the ones with a AFCI problem on their own electrical work.
Click to expand...
I've moved into full time commercial work since 2018, before that the shop I worked for did large custom homes, commercial and service work in both camps. Early on in the adoption of AFCIs I gathered a reputation as the guy who could excise the demons out of nuisance tripping AFCIs. I would go on a service call and find a neutral to ground fault or a crossed neutral on the circuit every time. I was among the crowd who said anybody who had problems with AFCIs needed to get their act together and stop blaming the breaker when it was lousy wiring practices that were the problem.

Then it happened to me. I got a call one day from a contractor on a house I wired. The trim carpenters were having problems with breakers tripping. I show up and start troubleshooting. Problem breakers were all AFCIs tripping with any tool that had a soft start. Plug that tool into a GFCI protected circuit and there was no tripping. Plug anything else into the AFCI circuit and there was no tripping. The problem was the AFCI. Sq D Homeline. I started a thread about it here. Consensus was the silicone controlled rectifiers in the soft start caused the AFCI to nuisance trip.

Then it happened to me again on another house I wired. This time it was the home owner having problems with their big screen TV tripping the breaker. Load the circuit up with heaters, hair dryers or anything else and there was no problem. This time it was GE breakers because Sq D was on the fecal excrement list at our shop. I called GE and got through to someone who sent new breakers to install. I remember the conversation well. He told me all about how certain loads will nuisance trip older editions of the breakers but he would send me a box of the latest batch of AFCIs at no charge.

Then it happened to me again two years ago even though I was in full time commercial construction and thought my AFCI woes were in the rear view mirror. I helped my wife's sister and her husband with a kitchen remodel. I pulled a new circuit for their new fridge. Sent the BIL to the store to get a GFCI breaker for it. He came back with a Dual Function breaker. A week after the fridge is installed he asks me why his fridge goes out at odd times. Swap the DF breaker for a straight GFCI breaker and fridge works with no problems. Siemens breaker this time.

AFCIs are a fraud. The manufacturers knew it and rammed them into the code anyway. That's why I hate them.
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
It is not a high frequency load, but a load that creates high frequency leakage current. It looks at the frequency of the leakage current and changes the trip point based on the frequency. The must trip for 60 hertz remains 6mA, at 2500 hertz, it is 12.9mA and at 10,000 hertz, it is 35.82.
Click to expand...
Thank you. We hear these things are changing yet many don't really know what will change. This helps make sense of it. Sounds like it might be somewhat worthwhile change when you compare to how problems/solutions involving AFCI technology have gone.
 
hbiss said:
I have no problem with GFCIs, just the expansion into places where they aren't needed and equipment that isn't compatible making for nuisance tripping. Like the old saying goes "if it aint broke don't fix it". Yes, they have been reliable for 50 years, so make equipment work with them not the other way around.

-Hal
Click to expand...
I'm with you on expansion into places they aren't needed, been a lot of that in recent years. This HF technology if successful still can be pretty useful on some the 120 volt receptacles that many of us mostly agree GFCI is a good thing for yet there is high speed switching power supplies on things being plugged in nowadays that don't play well with old school GFCI devices. Might be able to argue if the refrigerator receptacle in the kitchen needs to have GFCI protection or not, but I have seen power tools with electronic speed or soft starting controls that don't play well with GFCI used for temp construction receptacles - which is an area I have strong feelings about GFCI protection being necessary for those particular receptacles. Too many people in other trades that have bad tool and extension cords, missing EGC pins, etc. and GFCI is a good thing because of this reason alone.
 
ActionDave said:
AFCIs are a fraud. The manufacturers knew it and rammed them into the code anyway. That's why I hate them.
Click to expand...
My understanding the CPSC wanted them to develop something to protect against arcing faults to supposedly lessen house fires started by electrical issues that don't trip conventional overcurrent protection devices. What they came up with had issues, but the manufacturers weren't intending to lose out on what they put into R&D at that point and put some money into marketing it as well, but not so much to consumers, or electrical professionals in general but rather into convincing code making panels that these devices would save lives and property - get them into the code and you will have sales, otherwise they won't sell especially after all the undesirable tripping that did happen with them, and they most likely knew it wasn't fully ready but weren't going to take the losses on R & D either, let the consumer be the testing lab to discover what issues may come up with them. That is a little how the combination type came about. We were told before that these devices would trip for series and parallel arcing events, then they ended up creating a new device that will trip on both series and parallel arcing and acted like they never claimed the old ones would do that? And if they fix a problem they update the product, possibly even offer to replace an old one, but certainly not reimburse the installer for his part in dealing with the issues even though he may have spent hours trying to figure out if he did wrong or if product wasn't performing as intended. After all they tended to keep the how it works details somewhat top secret so nobody knows what is going on with it when it doesn't do what is expected to do.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top