AFCIs filling up the panel

[renosteinke]

Haven't you all figured out yet .... that anonymous parties have been trying to ban twin/tandem breakers through the back door?

They can't just come out and say 'we think skinny breakers are bad.' No, they'd rather get clever, and require additional features, like GFCI, AFCI, and now- the latest miracle- the 'out of parameter current interrupter.' Just excuses to push the skinnies out of the panel.

GFCI devices? Cutler-Hammer has already launched a campaign to require GFCI protection at the panel.

AFCI devices? Let me know when you find one.

Cost? With every such proposal, the 'cost analysis' is nothing more than the increased breaker costs ... totally neglecting the costs associated with having to use more panels and more wire runs.

 

[kwired]

I agree entirely, I know the drill. My point is, what is the actual service drop size? What does the utility actualy use in real life? Is is possible that you could upsize the panel from 100a to 150a with the existing service drop without having to upgrade the service drop? What I'm looking for is some latitude in ampacity by thinking outside the box.

Who specifies the panel size? When electricians come in after the fact what is the latitude that they have to work within. They often time have very lttle to no input other than bidding to the plans and specifications and you know what happens when you start do add extras to do the job the way you think it should be done. Can you even get a 42 ckt pnl with a 100a main should you want to upgrade a 100a panel? Or are you forced to add a sub panel because you have no choice?
The electrical contractors sometimes have their hands tied when you're dealing with plans and specifications and you have had no input up front.

You may not find a 42 circuit with 100 amp main as a stock item. You can purchase a 42 circuit main lug panel (will likely have at least 150 amp bus, but that doesn't hurt anything) and either feed it from a 100 amp main or back feed a 100 amp main - with proper hold down device for plug on breaker types.

 

[hillbilly1]

Might not be as out of line as you may think. If you have a panel full of 1-2 amp continuous loads on every breaker it very well may operate at a higher temp than same panel with just a couple 50 amp breakers with 40 amp continuous loads. The thermal overload device within the breaker operates because of heating within the breaker. This heating is present when there is any load but increases as the current increases. 30 breakers creating a low level of heat adds up and could be more than just two with a higher level of heat given off.

Typical dwelling does not have very much load that runs continuously. Heating or cooling is the best possibility, or maybe a swimming pool pump if there is one. So you often do not notice much heating within a panel for a dwelling, except for air conditioner breaker most of the time.

Most people do not think of 15 watts as being very much. Grab ahold of the tip of a 15 watt soldering iron that has been turned on for at least a few minutes and tell me it is not hot. Just a few watts of heat in an enclosed space will start to add up.

I should have clarified that the 1 1/2 amps was the largest load, the 225 amp panels were averaging 30 amps per phase total. The arc fault breakers should not be consuming that much energy to create enough heat to make the panel cover almost too hot to touch. I've had less heat in panelboards that were loaded to 80% of their capacity. Just think of all of the energy wasted by the arc faults!

 

[templdl]

You may not find a 42 circuit with 100 amp main as a stock item. You can purchase a 42 circuit main lug panel (will likely have at least 150 amp bus, but that doesn't hurt anything) and either feed it from a 100 amp main or back feed a 100 amp main - with proper hold down device for plug on breaker types.

Yes, I agree that you can do that as I have suppled a panel with those options on occasion.

But I have never had the opportuniy to provide a MLO panel with a hold down kit for a main breaker application that is service entrance listed. As I recall the only way you can get an SE rated panel is if the main breaker comes as part of the panel. And I donn't recall if the main beaker frame size used is available it 100a because I tried that trick one time.

Isn't that what we are talking about, a residential SE rated panel? It wouldn't be a good thing for the AHJ coto come it and inspect you beautifuly installed 42 ckt pnl with a UL listed mold down kit for your 100A main and asks where the SE label was.

 

[kwired]

Yes, I agree that you can do that as I have suppled a panel with those options on occasion.

But I have never had the opportuniy to provide a MLO panel with a hold down kit for a main breaker application that is service entrance listed. As I recall the only way you can get an SE rated panel is if the main breaker comes as part of the panel. And I donn't recall if the main beaker frame size used is available it 100a because I tried that trick one time.

Isn't that what we are talking about, a residential SE rated panel? It wouldn't be a good thing for the AHJ coto come it and inspect you beautifuly installed 42 ckt pnl with a UL listed mold down kit for your 100A main and asks where the SE label was.

If there is a main ahead of the panel this is no longer a problem. Maybe a combination meter/main feeding a 42 ckt MLO panel - perfectly fine to do that.

 

[kwired]

I should have clarified that the 1 1/2 amps was the largest load, the 225 amp panels were averaging 30 amps per phase total. The arc fault breakers should not be consuming that much energy to create enough heat to make the panel cover almost too hot to touch. I've had less heat in panelboards that were loaded to 80% of their capacity. Just think of all of the energy wasted by the arc faults!

Is the panel you are talking about in the assisted living have several AFCI's? I guess I understood there was several standard breakers with 1-1/2 amp loads - they will create some heat - especially if continuous. Exactly how much I don't know.

I have not been around enough AFCI's to know how much if any extra heat they give up. They will give up some just like a standard breaker if they have a thermal overload device - that is just the nature of thermal overload devices.

 

[hillbilly1]

Is the panel you are talking about in the assisted living have several AFCI's? I guess I understood there was several standard breakers with 1-1/2 amp loads - they will create some heat - especially if continuous. Exactly how much I don't know.

I have not been around enough AFCI's to know how much if any extra heat they give up. They will give up some just like a standard breaker if they have a thermal overload device - that is just the nature of thermal overload devices.

6-42 circuit bolt-in panel boards completely full of afci's. No regular breakers, even the breakers with no load were warm. These were just for the bedroom circuits. Other panel boards with regular breakers were for the living area's and other loads.

 

[kwired]

6-42 circuit bolt-in panel boards completely full of afci's. No regular breakers, even the breakers with no load were warm. These were just for the bedroom circuits. Other panel boards with regular breakers were for the living area's and other loads.

Sounds like there wasn't even any room in that panel for a mouse nest Bolt on's are usually in 20" wide cabinets though so maybe not as crowded as I am picturing.

Sounds like they should have mixed the loads some more. Also sounds like this was done back when bedrooms were all that required AFCI and could be an even bigger problem with latest code.

May need a cabinet cooler for such installs.

 

[templdl]

If there is a main ahead of the panel this is no longer a problem. Maybe a combination meter/main feeding a 42 ckt MLO panel - perfectly fine to do that.

Yes, I can see your point as the electrician wound now have to add a separate, separate single enclosed 100a breaker that is SE listed to feed the 42 circuit panel. That certainly is an is an option but getting a bit pricy for simple 100a service though.

 

[robwire]

Exactly. I see this all the time. 30 ckt panels full in brand new houses. I usually badmouth the electrician and tell the homeowner how he thought he was being sly but actually spent more than he would have if he just used a 40 ckt. The homeowner usually replies with yeah, he was kind of a moron, we didn't like him but the builder used him. That's when I badmouth the builders.

This is what I have never been able to figure out.

Why would anyone install a 30ck panel?

This was before the AFCI rule ,now it's just completely insane to put in a 30.

Funny that the op is complaining about it filling the panel, its his own cheap fault.

 

[Gac66610]

kind of funny all that was asked was is it legal to use twins/tandem breakers in new construction .... now anyone using a 30 or 32 ct panel is cheap or is a moron, or even the builder for using him. the price difference (for me) from a 200a 32 circuit to a 200a 40ct panel is about $68. and with the 32ct some breakers are included in the "contractors pack" so the price difference is even greater

anyone can sit here all day and call me cheap or even a moron for using them


i have work to do

 

[kwired]

Yes, I can see your point as the electrician wound now have to add a separate, separate single enclosed 100a breaker that is SE listed to feed the 42 circuit panel. That certainly is an is an option but getting a bit pricy for simple 100a service though.

42 circuits is not exactly a simple 100 amp service. If you need 42 circuits you are going to spend more anyway. If you sub feed a second panel as a method of gaining more circuits you will spend just as much or even more.

 

[templdl]

42 circuits is not exactly a simple 100 amp service. If you need 42 circuits you are going to spend more anyway. If you sub feed a second panel as a method of gaining more circuits you will spend just as much or even more.

I agree as that's a no brainer. But, the fact remains as to how people who supposedly have the means not want to do so. It's a matter of how they acquired their money, its by being cheep. The op wasn't clear but may the existing service have been 100a? If they did in fact have the means why not upgrade the service? And now we're getting off on one of those "what if" rabbet trails again, a tangent?
Should the original design have included a 150 of 200a service in the specs there would be a 42ckt panel and if there wasn't you might wonder where the contractor's head was.
My focus was on the existing situation and how to work with it. Would an electrician in all do conscience put in a SE rated enclosed 100a main breaker to feed a 42 ckt panel which could be prone to eventual overloading the service? Is a 42ckt panel intended for 100a even though there are no limitations that you can't?

 

[kwired]

I agree as that's a no brainer. But, the fact remains as to how people who supposedly have the means not want to do so. It's a matter of how they acquired their money, its by being cheep. The op wasn't clear but may the existing service have been 100a? If they did in fact have the means why not upgrade the service? And now we're getting off on one of those "what if" rabbet trails again, a tangent?
Should the original design have included a 150 of 200a service in the specs there would be a 42ckt panel and if there wasn't you might wonder where the contractor's head was.
My focus was on the existing situation and how to work with it. Would an electrician in all do conscience put in a SE rated enclosed 100a main breaker to feed a 42 ckt panel which could be prone to eventual overloading the service? Is a 42ckt panel intended for 100a even though there are no limitations that you can't?

Probably not something you would run into in a dwelling very often, but you could have many circuits with pretty light load on each one. Make it a three phase supply and the liklihood can be higher, as you now have 1.73 times the power available.

 

[MichaelHoltJr]

That's funny!

 

[sparkease]

If it is a 30ckt panel then you can't install more than 30. The panel must be rated for it. If the panel is rated for twin breakers, unless the specs tell you otherwise there is no problem using a panel that s "listed" for use with tandem breakers.

It appears to be as though somebody didn't consider the problem that you are having which is certainly not a fault of yours.
You have been provided a 30ckt panel and are require by the code to install a given number of AFCIs is it along with the 240v loads which could be a range, A/c, water heater, and clothes drier that's up to 8 pole spaces. Then, AFCIs take up 1 pole space apiece. It apears as though you panel is only rated for 30ckts with 30 pole spaces.
You may be dead meat on this one. Sub panel time?? Show the issue to the contractor where he would need to add time and materials to the change that may be required.
It may be that they are trying to put 10# of ____ in a 1# bag.

we quit using 30/40s years ago the cost of space saver breakers(twins) is more than cost of the larger panel, also the increased load on buss was causing failure at the shared buss stab.our local inspector outlawed the use of 30 space panels because of many failures.

 

[kwired]

we quit using 30/40s years ago the cost of space saver breakers(twins) is more than cost of the larger panel, also the increased load on buss was causing failure at the shared buss stab.our local inspector outlawed the use of 30 space panels because of many failures.

I can understand the cost issue where the full 40 circuit panel with full size breakers costs less.

I don't understand the increased load on the bus issue. That same bus is likely rated for up to 125 amp breaker in most cases why would a 20 amp tandem be an issue? Why would a 20 amp tandem be any more issue than current allowed to be drawn if a 40 amp breaker were plugged onto same bus?

 

[templdl]

Probably not something you would run into in a dwelling very often, but you could have many circuits with pretty light load on each one. Make it a three phase supply and the liklihood can be higher, as you now have 1.73 times the power available.

So, how does one reply to the OP now that we've gone around the block a few times? He has a specific application issue and how does he resolve it? All too often we get into these debates that really don't address the the issue in the OP. Need more Real Estate, simply add a sub panel?

 

[templdl]

we quit using 30/40s years ago the cost of space saver breakers(twins) is more than cost of the larger panel, also the increased load on buss was causing failure at the shared buss stab.our local inspector outlawed the use of 30 space panels because of many failures.

Interesting. I would imaging with such a high failure rate it would have gotten UL's attention. Did your local authority write it into the local code or is it a mtter of the AHJ's opinion not to allow them?

 

[kwired]

So, how does one reply to the OP now that we've gone around the block a few times? He has a specific application issue and how does he resolve it? All too often we get into these debates that really don't address the the issue in the OP. Need more Real Estate, simply add a sub panel?

OP has stated his panel is 200 amps in post 15. The 100 amp main serving a 42 circuit panel scenario does not apply to OP.