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AFCI's have they proven themselves?

B

brother

Senior Member
Location
"I have learned, in whatsoever STATE I am, therewi
Its been some years since the requirement of the AFCI's came on the scene. There have been some discussion lately about them not really have proven to really help with prevention of fires. The only thing is that they have increase the costs of breakers for houses. With the new costs of surge protection, exterior disconnects, and the expansion of afci's, some areas are considering of deleting them . I fully DOUBT that will ever happen, but it does make one think, has the afci really proven itself over the years?

What do you think?
 
ptonsparky

ptonsparky

Tom
Location
NE (9.06 miles @5.9 Degrees from Winged Horses)
Occupation
EC - retired
rc/retired said:
My house was built in 1977 with Square D QO breakers. I've never had an electrical fire.
I'd say 46 years is proof positive that Sq. D QO breakers prevent electrical fires.
I don't need no stinkin AFCI breakers! JMHO

Ron
Click to expand...
My previous home was built in 1914, with no electrical fires so fuses are...."....


I agree. PIA Forced junk.
 
Fred B

Fred B

Senior Member
Location
Upstate, NY
Occupation
Electrician
Just because you didn't have any fire doesn't mean anything other than you had quality installation without anything that compromised the system.

Seen many near misses where a fire didn't start onto structure in total, but did burn wall and framing, and that eventually self extinguished due to arcing event moved to a point that didn't any longer support the burning conductor, most times a result of arcing wire entry into a metal grounded box that tripped from short circuit. Almost always found faulty installation point or a device that would no longer support usage, ie. worn receptacle. Just what I've witnessed.
Not a scientific analysis method but I haven't seen any of these types of damage on circuits protected by an AFCI.
 
kwired

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Occupation
EC
My opinion from early on has been that other than maybe abuse of extension cords the main cause of fires is likely the "glowing connection" which AFCI's can not detect. Most other incidents can likely be protected with lower magnetic trip settings like is common in Square D's QO and Homeline 15 and 20 amp standard single pole units. For certain loads that have higher inrush, they do make a breaker with higher magnetic trip.
 
J

jap

Senior Member
Occupation
Electrician
Fred B said:
Just because you didn't have any fire doesn't mean anything other than you had quality installation without anything that compromised the system.

Seen many near misses where a fire didn't start onto structure in total, but did burn wall and framing, and that eventually self extinguished due to arcing event moved to a point that didn't any longer support the burning conductor, most times a result of arcing wire entry into a metal grounded box that tripped from short circuit. Almost always found faulty installation point or a device that would no longer support usage, ie. worn receptacle. Just what I've witnessed.
Not a scientific analysis method but I haven't seen any of these types of damage on circuits protected by an AFCI.
Click to expand...

With that being said in a fully required AFCI protected electrical installation is there any better compensation in case of an electrical fire?

Jap>
 
electrofelon

electrofelon

Senior Member
Location
Cherry Valley NY, Seattle, WA
Here's my take. I'm sure there is a specific situation where an AFCI would trip and prevent a fire, but I would say this would be extremely rare, and not at all worth the cost of these things. You got to do some sort of cost benefit analysis. I can come up with many things that would result in more safety with less cost. Also the introduction was so botched and premature that pretty much no one is going to have faith in them. So what happens when there's something behind the walls that trips the afci, what is going to happen? Someone's just going to change it out with a regular breaker. You Really think someone's going to start cutting open sheetrock to figure out why an afci won't hold?

I will say that I believe most afci trips are from sloppy wiring. It's surprising how many resi electricians seem to have trouble keeping neutrals from different circuits separate.
 
B

brycenesbitt

Senior Member
Location
United States
I read the original CSPC cost just justification for AFCI's... it was junk. First, it was barely cost effective, second they had no real data just a broad assumption that AFCI's would stop cord connected appliance fires. Sigh.
 
J

jap

Senior Member
Occupation
Electrician
electrofelon said:
Here's my take. I'm sure there is a specific situation where an AFCI would trip and prevent a fire, but I would say this would be extremely rare, and not at all worth the cost of these things. You got to do some sort of cost benefit analysis. I can come up with many things that would result in more safety with less cost. Also the introduction was so botched and premature that pretty much no one is going to have faith in them. So what happens when there's something behind the walls that trips the afci, what is going to happen? Someone's just going to change it out with a regular breaker. You Really think someone's going to start cutting open sheetrock to figure out why an afci won't hold?

I will say that I believe most afci trips are from sloppy wiring. It's surprising how many resi electricians seem to have trouble keeping neutrals from different circuits separate.
Click to expand...

Oddly enough I have before, and, found a nail that had rubbed through the romex.

Jap>
 
J

jap

Senior Member
Occupation
Electrician
hbiss said:
I think money would be better spent on doing away with Romex in favor of MC and in the interim requiring insulated staples. Poor quality labor is only going to make installation problems worse.

-Hal
Click to expand...

I agree.
The products are simply too easy to damage.

Most modern day NM unlike in years past wont even survive the snugging up of a romex connector anymore.


Jap>
 
J

jap

Senior Member
Occupation
Electrician
electrofelon said:
That's great you found the issue, but the vast majority will say "another junk AFCI tripping rip it out."
Click to expand...

Most times there's a reason and I can usually find it, and, those who rip em out have just taken responsibility for all those who came before him.

Jap>
 
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