AFCI's have they proven themselves?

[kwired]

What are you talking about. ECs that let their helpers bury fire hazards behind walls?? ECs who specialize in AFCIs? Sound like crooks to me. Isn't every EC required to provide AFCIs? Oh, I see. Those "specialists" charge the customer a "little extra" and convince them how AFCIs will save their lives and that of their children and dog.

Leave it to somebody to take an already shady product and exploit it for their own profit. Same guys who promote that little box that plugs into a receptacle and will cut your electric bill in half.

-Hal

Sounds like going to the dentist in recent years to me. There isn't any "family dentists" that do anything but take x rays and refer you on to a specialist because they don't do the services you need. They aren't afraid to charge you for their referral though.

You probably can't get an appointment with these AFCI specialists without a referral from your licensed EC who only does general installs though.

 

[ptonsparky]

I can see those "specialists" putting in the updated breakers and driving away.

 

[kwired]

I can see those "specialists" putting in the updated breakers and driving away.

And the problem still persists. Another service charge when they return, win for the specialist.

 

[winnie]

One point about AFCIs which deserves some research: how many so called nuisance trips are indicators of a real flaw in the wiring.

Another poster described that they would be called to construction sites for apparent nuisance tripping, only to find out that tightening the screws in the receptacles would fix the problem.

Are there 'subclinical' wiring flaws, things which a regular breaker wouldn't detect, and which don't cause significant problems quickly, but which the AFCI does detect?

Is there a case for temporary 'diagnostic AFCI devices' to be used when the home is being built, which would then get replaced with normal breakers after a 'wear in' period?

Jonathan

 

[drcampbell]

... One point about AFCIs which deserves some research: how many so-called nuisance trips are indicators of a real flaw in the wiring.

When the GFCI requirement was relatively new, I was forever called on to remedy nuisance trips. The other trades were not amused when my remedy was to suggest that they stop using raggety old extension cords and stop dragging them through the mud and the puddles.

 

[kwired]

When the GFCI requirement was relatively new, I was forever called on to remedy nuisance trips. The other trades were not amused when my remedy was to suggest that they stop using raggety old extension cords and stop dragging them through the mud and the puddles.

IMO that is the primary reason GFCI's were required, initially. Now some the more recent expanded GFCI requirements are more of "because we can" reasoning though.

 

[jmellc]

I'm old enough to call myself old but fifteen years away from retirement and I do commercial work, but have past experience in home wiring. None of that matters. AFCIs do have problems, do cause nuisance trips, and don't have any ability to do anything to stop electrical fires in houses, aside from the ground fault protection ferreting some problems with miswired circuits and ground faults on damaged circuits.

Case and point, a mere two years ago my in-laws were doing a kitchen update and bought a new fridge. I ran a dedicated circuit from the panel to fridge, brother-in-law goes out to home desperate and comes back with a dual function breaker because he thinks it's going to be better and safer. Fridge randomly trips breaker for a week. Rip out the dual function breaker, install GFCI breaker and no more trips.

AFCIs don't work well with electronic loads. The manufactures have reduced the number of nuisance trips but they haven't gotten rid of them, and since AFCI tech is a black box how do we know if the tweaks are not removing whatever protection the breaker might have given during an actual arc event.

We pay 10 times the price for a breaker that is unreliable and doesn't even do the 1 thing it was created for, arcs. Again, I have replaced a lot of devices burned up by backstabbing, where the AFCI DID NOT TRIP. All this while explaining to customers how we were forced to use these expensive breakers. I hate them and I want to torture the guy who invented them. Someone once had a Youtube video with a guy connecting to an AFCI and doing deliberate series arcs in different ways. Never tripped.

Another reason I have little respect for authority and less as I get older and crankier.

 

[hbiss]

Another poster described that they would be called to construction sites for apparent nuisance tripping, only to find out that tightening the screws in the receptacles would fix the problem.

I think that was more his imagination than anything else.

-Hal

 

[kwired]

Another poster described that they would be called to construction sites for apparent nuisance tripping, only to find out that tightening the screws in the receptacles would fix the problem.

I think that was more his imagination than anything else.

-Hal

I could see a nick in the insulation of the neutral conductor that intermittently gets grounded at times being the reason for tripping then when they pulled devices out to tighten screws it got repositioned and doesn't ground out anymore.

 

[brother]

I think that was more his imagination than anything else.

-Hal

I had a similar issue in my house. a gfci would trip in the kitchen that also supplied a rececptical in my bedroom. Open the box and tightened everthing and it went away.

 

[brycenesbitt]

One point about AFCIs which deserves some research: how many so called nuisance trips are indicators of a real flaw in the wiring.

What value might this have?

A new form of device combining a megger / voltmeter / oscilloscope / AFCI / GFCI.
Make a device that can at installation time really check out a circuit on a technical level, and give good feedback. Get this in the hands of field inspectors of wiring.
Double down on torque requirements. And absolutely ban backstab outlets like totally and right away. And find those loose connections before anyone moves in.

Get it right the first time.

 

[W@ttson]

I'm old enough to call myself old but fifteen years away from retirement and I do commercial work, but have past experience in home wiring. None of that matters. AFCIs do have problems, do cause nuisance trips, and don't have any ability to do anything to stop electrical fires in houses, aside from the ground fault protection ferreting some problems with miswired circuits and ground faults on damaged circuits.

Case and point, a mere two years ago my in-laws were doing a kitchen update and bought a new fridge. I ran a dedicated circuit from the panel to fridge, brother-in-law goes out to home desperate and comes back with a dual function breaker because he thinks it's going to be better and safer. Fridge randomly trips breaker for a week. Rip out the dual function breaker, install GFCI breaker and no more trips.

AFCIs don't work well with electronic loads. The manufactures have reduced the number of nuisance trips but they haven't gotten rid of them, and since AFCI tech is a black box how do we know if the tweaks are not removing whatever protection the breaker might have given during an actual arc event.

same thing was happening on a sub zero Refrigerator I had the displeasure of having an AFCI on. Luckily after it stopped after sometime. but completely unacceptable

 

[ActionDave]

You must have been one of those no longer practicing, commercial electricians that had problems with wiring houses and then changed to a skilled residential installer. That would explain why the breaker stopped tripping.

 

[ramsy]

You must have been one of those no longer practicing, commercial electricians that had problems with wiring houses and then changed to a skilled residential installer. That would explain why the breaker stopped tripping.

Yes AFCI's sniff out unqualified persons, in close proximity to the panel, and won't work until they leave.