- Location
- Massachusetts
IMO the fact that they are mechanically and 'fluid' continuous makes a strong argument for one system.
AHJ Grounding Electrode Requirement
- Thread starter jclint07
- Start date
- Status
IMO the fact that they are mechanically and 'fluid' continuous makes a strong argument for one system.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
Maybe. I don't really have a definite opinion of whether or not they are two systems or one.
How about a hot water heating system? Most will say it is a separate system. Mechanically and hydraulically they are continuous and one usually pressurizes the other but at a reduced pressure through a regulator, and there is backflow protection making it a one way street. Steam boiler - not exactly the same thing but the water system ties into the boiler.
I guess for electrical professionals we could equate the water heater or boiler in some ways to a transformer as being a transition between two systems. Now we just need to determine if it is the equivelant of a separately derived system or not:happyyes:
jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
From the Plumbing Code.
Chapter 2
BUILDING SERVICES PIPING. All piping systems and their component parts that are part of a building system and that promote the safe, sanitary, and energy efficient occupancy of a building. Building services piping includes, but is not limited to, cold and hot potable water distribution for plumbing fixtures; sanitary lines from plumbing fixtures; nonflammable medical gas systems; medical oxygen systems; medical vacuum systems; fire protection piping systems and compressed air in dry systems; refrigeration, chilled water, condenser and cooling tower water, brine, and water/antifreeze systems; steam, steam condensate, and hot water piping systems; and fuel oil piping and fuel gas piping for heating, cooling, and cooking applications. See division (A) of Section 4104.41 of the Revised Code.
LABEL. An identification applied on a product by the manufacturer that contains the name of the manufacturer, the function and performance characteristics of the product or material, and the name and identification of an approved agency and that indicates that the representative sample of the product or material has been tested and evaluated by an approved agency (see building code Section 1703.5 and building code definitions "Inspection Certificate,” "Manufacturer’s Designation,” and "Mark”).
LISTED. Equipment, appliances or materials included in a directory published by an approved agency whose listing states either that equipment, appliances or materials meet standards listed in this code or have been tested and found suitable for use in a specified manner.
PLUMBING FIXTURE. A receptacle or device that is either permanently or temporarily connected to the water distribution system of the premises and demands a supply of water therefrom; discharges wastewater, liquid-borne waste materials or sewage either directly or indirectly to the drainage system of the premises; or requires both a water supply connection and a discharge to the drainage system of the premises.
PLUMBING SYSTEM. Includes the water supply and distribution pipes; plumbing fixtures and traps; water-treating or water-using equipment; soil, waste and vent pipes; and sanitary and storm sewers and building drains; in addition to their respective connections, devices and appurtenances within a structure or premises.
WATER HEATER. Any heating appliance or equipment that heats potable water and supplies such water to the potable hot water distribution system.
WATER OUTLET. A discharge opening through which water is supplied to a fixture, into the atmosphere (except into an open tank that is part of the water supply system), to a boiler or heating system, or to any devices or equipment requiring water to operate but which are not part of the plumbing system.
WATER PIPE
Riser. A water supply pipe that extends one full story or more to convey water to branches or to a group of fixtures.
Water distribution pipe. A pipe within the structure or on the premises that conveys water from the water service pipe, or from the meter when the meter is at the structure, to the points of utilization.
Water service pipe. The pipe from the water main or other source of potable water supply, or from the meter when the meter is at the public right of way, to the water distribution system of the building served.
WATER SUPPLY SYSTEM. The water service pipe, water distribution pipes, and the necessary connecting pipes, fittings, control valves and all appurtenances in or adjacent to the structure or premises.
For all ICC based definitions: http://publicecodes.citation.com/st/oh/st/b9v11/st_oh_st_b9v11_2_sec002.htm?bu=OH-P-2011-000004
SECTION 607 HOT WATER SUPPLY SYSTEM
607.1 Where required.
In residential occupancies, hot water shall be supplied to all plumbing fixtures and equipment utilized for bathing, washing, culinary purposes, cleansing, laundry or building maintenance. In nonresidential occupancies, hot water shall be supplied for culinary purposes, cleansing, laundry or building maintenance purposes. In nonresidential occupancies, hot water or tempered water shall be supplied for bathing and washing purposes. Tempered water shall be delivered from public hand-washing facilities. Tempered water shall be supplied through a water temperature limiting device that conforms to ASSE 1070 and shall limit the tempered water to a maximum of 110?F (43?C). This provision shall not supersede the requirement for protective shower valves in accordance with Section 424.3
Everyone knows my feelings so I will sit back and let you decide on your own.
Chapter 2
BUILDING SERVICES PIPING. All piping systems and their component parts that are part of a building system and that promote the safe, sanitary, and energy efficient occupancy of a building. Building services piping includes, but is not limited to, cold and hot potable water distribution for plumbing fixtures; sanitary lines from plumbing fixtures; nonflammable medical gas systems; medical oxygen systems; medical vacuum systems; fire protection piping systems and compressed air in dry systems; refrigeration, chilled water, condenser and cooling tower water, brine, and water/antifreeze systems; steam, steam condensate, and hot water piping systems; and fuel oil piping and fuel gas piping for heating, cooling, and cooking applications. See division (A) of Section 4104.41 of the Revised Code.
LABEL. An identification applied on a product by the manufacturer that contains the name of the manufacturer, the function and performance characteristics of the product or material, and the name and identification of an approved agency and that indicates that the representative sample of the product or material has been tested and evaluated by an approved agency (see building code Section 1703.5 and building code definitions "Inspection Certificate,” "Manufacturer’s Designation,” and "Mark”).
LISTED. Equipment, appliances or materials included in a directory published by an approved agency whose listing states either that equipment, appliances or materials meet standards listed in this code or have been tested and found suitable for use in a specified manner.
PLUMBING FIXTURE. A receptacle or device that is either permanently or temporarily connected to the water distribution system of the premises and demands a supply of water therefrom; discharges wastewater, liquid-borne waste materials or sewage either directly or indirectly to the drainage system of the premises; or requires both a water supply connection and a discharge to the drainage system of the premises.
PLUMBING SYSTEM. Includes the water supply and distribution pipes; plumbing fixtures and traps; water-treating or water-using equipment; soil, waste and vent pipes; and sanitary and storm sewers and building drains; in addition to their respective connections, devices and appurtenances within a structure or premises.
WATER HEATER. Any heating appliance or equipment that heats potable water and supplies such water to the potable hot water distribution system.
WATER OUTLET. A discharge opening through which water is supplied to a fixture, into the atmosphere (except into an open tank that is part of the water supply system), to a boiler or heating system, or to any devices or equipment requiring water to operate but which are not part of the plumbing system.
WATER PIPE
Riser. A water supply pipe that extends one full story or more to convey water to branches or to a group of fixtures.
Water distribution pipe. A pipe within the structure or on the premises that conveys water from the water service pipe, or from the meter when the meter is at the structure, to the points of utilization.
Water service pipe. The pipe from the water main or other source of potable water supply, or from the meter when the meter is at the public right of way, to the water distribution system of the building served.
WATER SUPPLY SYSTEM. The water service pipe, water distribution pipes, and the necessary connecting pipes, fittings, control valves and all appurtenances in or adjacent to the structure or premises.
For all ICC based definitions: http://publicecodes.citation.com/st/oh/st/b9v11/st_oh_st_b9v11_2_sec002.htm?bu=OH-P-2011-000004
SECTION 607 HOT WATER SUPPLY SYSTEM
607.1 Where required.
In residential occupancies, hot water shall be supplied to all plumbing fixtures and equipment utilized for bathing, washing, culinary purposes, cleansing, laundry or building maintenance. In nonresidential occupancies, hot water shall be supplied for culinary purposes, cleansing, laundry or building maintenance purposes. In nonresidential occupancies, hot water or tempered water shall be supplied for bathing and washing purposes. Tempered water shall be delivered from public hand-washing facilities. Tempered water shall be supplied through a water temperature limiting device that conforms to ASSE 1070 and shall limit the tempered water to a maximum of 110?F (43?C). This provision shall not supersede the requirement for protective shower valves in accordance with Section 424.3
Everyone knows my feelings so I will sit back and let you decide on your own.
Last edited:
jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
The NEC makes the statement that water system(s) will be bonded and it does not have a laundry list for these system(s)
250.104 Bonding of Piping Systems and Exposed Structural Steel.
(A) Metal Water Piping. The metal water piping system shall be bonded as required in (A)(1), (A)(2), or (A)(3) of this section. The bonding jumper(s) shall be installed in accordance with 250.64(A), (B), and (E). The points of attachment of the bonding jumper(s) shall be accessible.
(1) General. Metal water piping system(s) installed in or attached to a building or structure shall be bonded to the service equipment enclosure, the grounded conductor at the service, the grounding electrode conductor where of sufficient size, or to the one or more grounding electrodes used. The bonding jumper(s) shall be sized in accordance with Table 250.66 except as permitted in 250.104(A)(2) and (A)(3).
Any and all metal water systems must be bonded if they are complete water systems. Should they not be complete metal water systems then 250.104(B) applies. The reference of 240.104(B) is the statement of the Code Making Panel.
In past code cycles there was a requirement to make all metal pipes in a building electrically continuous. This requirement has been removed from the electrical code as the plumbing codes does not require that a repair to a metal piping system be made with metal pipe, but, this thought of keeping it electrically continuous has lingered in the electrical field.
Are the hot and cold pipes that supply my kitchen sink the same system? Yes they are both part of the Potable Water System. I can use either the hot or cold for cooking my food. What I am not allowed to do by the plumbing code is to connect the gray water system to my kitchen sink as this is not part of my potable water. I cannot connect my waste water to the faucet and draw waste water to cook with. It is a different system.
I can?t connect the hot water from my heating boiler to this sink and use this water for cooking nor can I connect my steam line to the faucet. Each of these metal water pipes constitutes different metal piping systems and if they are complete systems fall under the requirements of 250.104(A).
There is a very easy method to see if any metal piping system is a complete piping system. I can use a multimeter and test for continuity. If there is no continuity then there is no complete metal water system so I now go to 250.104(B) to do the bonding.
see the CMP statement of the proposal. They have made this same statement many, many times.
There is one requirement found in 250.104(A) for bonding metal water systems and this requirement is; the points of attachment of the bonding jumper(s) shall be accessible. There is no requirement to make the metal water system electrically continuous. Once I have hit the potable water system in an accessible place I am done. There is no requirement to bond around this or that. I could choose to bond to the hot water pipe and I am done. I could choose to bond the cold water pipe and I am done.
If the water heater, an appliance installed somewhere in the potable water system, breaks the continuity of the water system then the system is no longer a complete system and does not require and bonding across. This is not a requirement that can be found in the code anywhere. If it is someone?s opinion that the water heater breaks the potable water system I recommend that they read the statement of the Code Making Panel.
I have two voltages in my home. I have a dryer, range, water heater, AC unit, heat, all which operates off 240 volts. I have an assortment of receptacles and lights that operate off 120 volts. Do I have two electrical systems in my home?
We are required to bond the steel of a building. Should there be a masonry wall that the joist sit on and separates them is the electrician required to bond across each of these joist?
Old habits are hard to break.
jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
Thank you for posting the plumbing code that clearly states that the cold and hot water distribution is part of the same POTABLE water system. The rest of your post clearly states what other water systems are.
jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
Yes. And if the NEC said POTABLE water you would be correct but it does not.
(A) Metal Water Piping. The metal water piping system
shall be bonded as required ........
Water distribution pipe. A pipe within the structure or on the premises that conveys water from the water service pipe, or from the meter when the meter is at the structure, to the points of utilization
NOT
WATER SUPPLY SYSTEM. The water service pipe, water distribution pipes, and the necessary connecting pipes, fittings, control valves and all appurtenances in or adjacent to the structure or premises.
(1) General. Metal water piping system(s) installed in or
attached
I also see nothing that says complete or sections or anything but system.
Using your logic, if metal water entry, I could ground within 5', before the meter, filters , softeners or anything else, and be done. It is a bond to a "complete" system.
250.104(B) applies to non-water piping. It is either water (A) or it is not (B).
Ever seen one of these? Know what it does?
Ever seen theses?
It is my expert, plumbing, opinion that the systems are seperate.
Strathead
Senior Member
- Location
- Ocala, Florida, USA
- Occupation
- Electrician/Estimator/Project Manager/Superintendent
As a serious concern no argument intended. In the code I don't see the term complete water system. If it is a significant run of copper piping that carries water, wouldn't that be a part of a water system that is metal, and hence a "metal water system"?
Second, especially if their intent was as you stated, you could have PVC in the ground, 10 feet of copper at the entrance, dielectric fittings, or PVC piping in between and then 80% of the rest of the hot and cold systems could be in copper. Where is there any sense in bringing a 250-66 sized ground to the 10 foot section at the entrance, and where does it tell you that you should or should not bring this to the more significant part of the system that is metal?
I am truly confused. IMO, given today's construction standards, new construction should dictate all metal piping should fall under section (B)
jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
Let me try this another way.
I am the EC and you are the EI. I finish all my work in a home and call you for a final. You show up and see that the plumber has all kind of copper plumbing ran but with no hot water tank nor fixtures of any kind. What if anything do you want bonded? It is not a complete system and I don't bond. Do you pass me? Fail me? Come back later and verify continuity of the plumbing lines?
I am the EC and you are the EI. I finish all my work in a home and call you for a final. You show up and see that the plumber has all kind of copper plumbing ran but with no hot water tank nor fixtures of any kind. What if anything do you want bonded? It is not a complete system and I don't bond. Do you pass me? Fail me? Come back later and verify continuity of the plumbing lines?
Strathead
Senior Member
- Location
- Ocala, Florida, USA
- Occupation
- Electrician/Estimator/Project Manager/Superintendent
Does anyone else agree that this is a poorly written code section that needs to be reviewed?
jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
Nope. I think that it is poorly understood. Like when I thought #4 for a 200 AMP service was required to a ground rod. Then I learned that it was easier to have the guys install #4 for all 200 AMP services.
We all carry some bad info around with us. Remember the guys would combined all grounded conductors in a box even when they were different circuits? Well they are connected in the panel!
jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
You are correct the NEC does not say potable water but again you are correct it does say system.
What constitutes a system? If we look at the definition of an electrical system in the NEC includes the complete system such as the premises wiring system and grounding electrode system. The plumbing code even calls the hot and cold parts of the potable water system as you posted above.
The plumbing code also recognizes the difference between different water systems such as potable, gray, and waste. What some try to do is to split the systems into two systems such as cold and hot when the fact remains the same, the hot and cold are part of the same potable water system just as the 120 and 240 is part of the same system on my home.
If you had a metal water system that had filters, softeners and the like then the connection within the first five feet fulfills the requirement of 250.52(A)(1) but you would still be required to install the requirement of 250.104(A) unless there was nothing in line in which case the conductor within the first five feet would be all that was required.
It is not my opinion it is the Code Making Panel?s opinion and it is posted a couple of pages back. If it is not a complete metal piping system then bond using 250.104(B). If one of those fittings were installed then 250.104(B) applies.
5-236 Log #2432 NEC-P05 Final Action: Reject
(250.104(A)(1))
__________________________________________________ __________
Submitter: Robert P. McGann, City of Cambridge
Recommendation: Revise text to read as follows:
Metal water piping system(s) that is likely to be energized , installed in or attached to a building or structure shall be bonded.
Substantiation: With much expanded use of plastic water piping system(s) isolating section of metal piping systems. This type of installation leaves contractors and inspectors what is required to be bonded.
Panel Meeting Action: Reject
Panel Statement: The requirements of 250.104(A) apply to complete metallic water piping systems. Where there is no complete metallic water piping system, then the requirements of 250.104(B) would apply for those portions of isolated metal water piping system likely to become energized.
Number Eligible to Vote: 15
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 15
See the proposal above
I sign off and walk away. The plumbing is outside the scope of the electrical inspector.
Strathead
Senior Member
- Location
- Ocala, Florida, USA
- Occupation
- Electrician/Estimator/Project Manager/Superintendent
I agree with you that the information you provided above somewhat clarifies the code section, however, I still find it ambiguous. It gives no indication of what it considers a complete metallic water piping system. It also shouldn't be necessary to reference this, or plumbing codes to glean additional information. Given this, and my personal feelings toward the lack of necessity to run a 250.66 conductor to non grounding electrode compliant water piping, I would use the AHJ clause to decide that any non conductive break anywhere in the entire structure would then make all the metallic water piping an incomplete system. Therefor (B) would apply.
Or in other words this is still a very poorly written code section that also creates an unessecary expense and should be thrown out. since I don't count and I am not going to propose to the Code board, I guess I am done caring.
jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
The opinion is wrong and it is not in the NEC.
Bonding/grounding not an inspector problem?
jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
It is exactly what is written in the NEC. 250.104(A) requires that the system be bonded and that is all that is required.
There is not one word of verbiage that would lead me to believe that the metal water pipe is to be made electrically continuous. As a matter of fact that is something outside the scope of the electrical code. Electricians don?t install plumbing and electrical inspectors don?t inspect plumbing. The plumbing code will allow a metal pipe to be repaired using a nonmetallic pipe. Is the plumber supposed to then hire an electrician to bond around this repair?
Then there is the idea that there are two different potable water systems in a building. Some think that there is a potable cold water system and then there is a potable hot water system when the fact of the matter is they are both part of the same system. The same potable water flows through all these pipes.
Then you ask me about an incomplete plumbing system and how I would handle it as an electrical inspector. If when I arrive the plumber has never been on the job at all and I was there for a final I would inspect what was present in front of me, sign off and go home. What I wouldn?t do is start assuming something might happen. The plumbing is incomplete so therefore it is not a complete metal water system while I am there.
If all this isn?t bad enough we start with what might be happening down the street. If this was the purpose of the bonding pray tell me why this bonding is not required to be done on the supply side of the water meter or shut off valve where it would do some good instead of somewhere on the interior metal pipe?
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Ok, if I would agree that there is only one potable water system (something that will never happen), and both of these systems have an equal amount of pipe, which one, if any requires a 250.104(A) bond?
jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
Your job as an electrician is to bond the water piping systems. Let me say that again. SYSTEMS with a big S.
Have you ever performed work that has been inspected under the plumbing code? I have.
Have you ever inspected others work using the plumbing code? I have.
Your opinion as an electrician or inspector (and I am both) means nothing as how to define plumbing systems.
I supposed that you think it is OK to drill holes 1 1/4" from the bottom of a joist. That is the building inspectors job to inspect that hole not the EI.
You keep interjecting words like "electrically continuous". Where is that in the code? Who brought that up?
As Don said in another post, my words not his "not there when I installed it".
Why are you hung up on potable? Where is complete?
The words are simple. Metal water piping!
This is the first thing we agree upon! "As a matter of fact that is something outside the scope of the electrical code"
scrypps
Member
- Location
- United States
250.50 requires that a water pipe present on the property be bonded within the first 5 ft of the point of entrance. If its required by the NEC, doesn't your AHJ hold liability unless with special permission (90.4)?
jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
I am not sure that I understand what you are saying. If there is not but one (which for whatever reason you will never agree) how can there be a both?
All that is required in 250.104(A) is that the point of bonding be accessible. There is no verbiage anywhere in 250.104 to do anything more. It does not require that the bonding conductor land on either hot or cold, front or back, start or finish, or any other place on the system. All that is required is that the point of attachment be accessible.
In the proposal I posted from 2007 the same Code Making Panel that is charged with the code section in this discussion was very clear about the metal piping system being a complete system. There is no verbiage in any of the proposals in the past few code cycles that would lead to the requirement of having multiple bonding jumpers installed for breaks in the potable water system.
There have been several proposals from members of this site to have the code panel state a limit on how long a metal pipe must be before it is required to be bonded. One such proposal was a length of 25 feet. The CMP rejected this proposal.
During the 2007 ROPs the CMP made several references to a ?complete? metal water piping system and if it is not a ?complete? metal water piping system then the bonding will fall under the provisions of 250.104(B).
This is not my opinion but instead it is the opinion of those who review the proposals and decide just how things are to be done. I can?t find any verbiage in any of the past proposals that would lead me to believe that the CMP would believe that there are two separate potable water systems to be found in a system that has an appliance installed to heat the potable water. The choice of hot or cold in the users of the water and all that is required to get this water is do I turn on the left or the right valve. I can even turn them both on at the same time and get potable water.
It doesn?t matter which valve I open the water is the same water. The only difference is one will be slightly warmer than the other.
jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
Yes there are a few different type of water systems such as but not limited to, potable, gray, and waste
Yes
Yes
ditto
See 300.4 of the NEC for more information on this
It is no longer in the NEC therefore not enforceable by an electrical inspector. Just what do you think is trying to be accomplished by bonding across something that breaks the metal water system? Is this not what is trying to be accomplished by bonding across a water heater? If it is not then why do it?
I don?t understand this statement therefore I cannot elaborate on its meaning.
Just what are we discussing here? Is it not the potable water that is being discussed? I wasn?t aware that we were discussing a water heater for the waste water system. It is the Code Making Panel that governs this code section that uses the word ?complete?. Are you saying that they are wrong in making such a statement?
This is the basis of my post, a metal water piping system which would include the ?complete? potable water. It is others who are trying to split this metal water piping into two separate systems.
Then pray tell me why an electrical inspector would try and enforce it?
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Mike,
Let me try again...you have hot and cold water systems that are physically, but not electrically connected. Since there is no complete system, is a 250.104(A) bond required? If so what is it connected to? If the 250.104(A) bonding is required for one of the systems, 250.104(B) would be required for the other? What makes one so much different that it requires a bonding jumper sized per 250.66 and the other only required a 250.122 bonding jumper if that other piping is "likely" to become energized?
Let me try again...you have hot and cold water systems that are physically, but not electrically connected. Since there is no complete system, is a 250.104(A) bond required? If so what is it connected to? If the 250.104(A) bonding is required for one of the systems, 250.104(B) would be required for the other? What makes one so much different that it requires a bonding jumper sized per 250.66 and the other only required a 250.122 bonding jumper if that other piping is "likely" to become energized?
- Status