All Dual Function (AFCI/GFCI) Breakers Tripping

[WillLloyd]

Keep in mind, we are not having any nuisense trips other than what I described above (which I guess are nuisense trips.....). In addition, its the dual function breakers that are tripping, not the AFCI breakers - so I assume that its the GFCI function that is tripping them.

Early on we did have a few that would trip for no apparent reason, but upon investigation the trips were for circuits where neutrals in two boxes were tied together through a 3-way switch circuit. And in another a neutral wire was loose under a wire nut.

Thanks.

 

[hbiss]

In addition, its the dual function breakers that are tripping, not the AFCI breakers - so I assume that its the GFCI function that is tripping them.

The AFCI design of the dual purpose breakers is not the same as the AFCI design of the combination AFCI breakers, so you can't make that assumption. The only way to find out is to replace the offending breakers with a regular GFCI breaker and see if they trip. For test purposes of course...

With a bit of caution relying on anecdotal surveys and internet opinion of course.

Further, not all experience with AFCI’s are published here, including mine, which has been amazement of how well they work when grabbing a loose plug with sparks.

For my service work, AFCI code has been an effective barrier to entry against unqualified persons monkeying with my clients property.

No, no "anecdotal surveys" or internet opinion, just the experience and research of the many professionals here. You are part of a group of maybe four members who actually support AFCIs.

And please explain how AFCI code prevents unqualified people from doing work at your customer's property? Maybe you found something they are good for. :lol:

-Hal

 

[romex jockey]

A dual function breaker is one with both GFCI and AFCI function.

GE might have AFCI only breakers that don't need a neutral, but all GFCI's need a neutral and can not share a neutral with another circuit. I am not familiar with GE's AFCI line -don't even know if I have ever seen one other then on the shelf at big box store (GE just not that popular here on new residential construction) but their DF breakers have to use a neutral to have proper function of the GFCI component.

AFCI's,GFCI's or any combination of them incorporate one chief component kwired

A toroidal coil

it's just a matter of what R value the electronics trip them at

but i digress

i've thrown a GE afci in a SqD panel ,just to see if there's any real dif

try it yourself if you'd like

what i'd really like to know is, the technological differences , but of course that may be way over my head

~RJ~

 

[kwired]

AFCI's,GFCI's or any combination of them incorporate one chief component kwired

A toroidal coil

it's just a matter of what R value the electronics trip them at

but i digress

i've thrown a GE afci in a SqD panel ,just to see if there's any real dif

try it yourself if you'd like

what i'd really like to know is, the technological differences , but of course that may be way over my head

~RJ~

GFCI be it a circuit breaker type or receptacle type is looking for same current that goes out on the "hot" to return on the "neutral". How is it possible to share the neutral with another breaker and not have imbalance in that current and trip the GFCI.

I do understand GE no longer has GFP in their AFCI's but a dual function breaker still has a GFCI component within it and does need to have the neutral of the circuit return through the same breaker - that is how all GFCI's work, they monitor all circuit conductors to determine if any current is leaking out to something else. If nothing is leaking then what goes out on one conductor has to come back on another monitored conductor.

GE breaker in a Square D panel doesn't change how the the GE breaker functions, nor does plugging a Square D breaker into a GE panel change how the Square D breaker functions. All that is different either way is the bus you connect to is designed a little differently and the fact that Square D does now have some breakers with plug on neutral instead of a pigtail neutral. I don't have a clue where you are trying to go with that.

 

[ptonsparky]

GFCI be it a circuit breaker type or receptacle type is looking for same current that goes out on the "hot" to return on the "neutral". How is it possible to share the neutral with another breaker and not have imbalance in that current and trip the GFCI.

I do understand GE no longer has GFP in their AFCI's but a dual function breaker still has a GFCI component within it and does need to have the neutral of the circuit return through the same breaker - that is how all GFCI's work, they monitor all circuit conductors to determine if any current is leaking out to something else. If nothing is leaking then what goes out on one conductor has to come back on another monitored conductor.

GE breaker in a Square D panel doesn't change how the the GE breaker functions, nor does plugging a Square D breaker into a GE panel change how the Square D breaker functions. All that is different either way is the bus you connect to is designed a little differently and the fact that Square D does now have some breakers with plug on neutral instead of a pigtail neutral. I don't have a clue where you are trying to go with that.

My WG would be that the GE held while the SQ D would trip. Now the question is ‘which one is doing a better job?

 

[kwired]

No, no "anecdotal surveys" or internet opinion, just the experience and research of the many professionals here. You are part of a group of maybe four members who actually support AFCIs.

-Hal

I don't have a problem with the intended purpose of AFCI's, but also don't think they have made a product that fully meets that intent yet, and am more upset at how they forced a product on us that didn't even do everything they claimed it would do. They claimed that first generation of AFCI's would do things they later claimed the newer combination type now do. I still don't know if they will do what they claim. Is it a step in the right direction, probably, but if they didn't force the consumer to have them by making them code requirement - very few would have been purchased, they wouldn't have had profits and may not have given up on further developing such a product - but we probably still wouldn't have a product available that many trust or are willing to pay for.

What we currently have still doesn't detect one of the most common things that I see as an electrical fire starter - the "glowing connection" Glowing connection can definitely start fires, arcing just can't be sustained at only 120 volts without extra help to keep feeding material into the arc to replace what was consumed in the arc. I've used arc welders before - the rod or wire melts and if you don't keep feeding wire or moving the rod closer to the work - the arc goes out. You need to get into 277/480 systems and higher before there is enough voltage there to sustain these arcs long enough to be much of a problem.

 

[ramsy]

..arcing just can't be sustained at only 120 volts without extra help to keep feeding material into the arc.. You need to get into 277/480 systems and higher before there is enough voltage there to sustain these arcs..

In 1977, we experienced a 120v arc at the disposer, under a wet & dusty kitchen sink, deteriorating particle board & dust from under the house. The disposer switch turned on a sustained arc, rippling white ribbon about 3/8 wide jumping across a 1/2" gap between disposer & plumbing. The terrifying noise frightened off the Electrician we hired, until 2-weeks later when a Plumber fixed the disposer.

Some electricians are just more competent as builders, and with pulling rope, than service work or complex electronics. Fear & complexity is not every Sparky's dream job, much less working with dilapidated cloth wiring, knob & Tube, or unforseable electrical sparks, while crawling around in 100+°F attics with cockroaches, wasp nests, Black Widow spiders, and other territorial vermin waiting for you in the dark.

 

[junkhound]

.....part of a group of maybe four members who actually support AFCIs.

...

-Hal

There are FOUR??
Surprised there are that many hmy:

 

[ptonsparky]

There are FOUR??
Surprised there are that many hmy:

We are experiencing less problems with newer units. We don’t use QO as a rule and diagnostics help. My guys have tracked down problems flagged as arcs @ customers. New vacuums helped at my house with only one AFCI still being affected by that noise. Wife has learned not to plug the vacum in there.

Don’t count me as one of the four yet though.

 

[hbiss]

We are experiencing less problems with newer units.

But are there fewer problems because they made them less "sensitive" or have they actually improved the technology? I'm at the point where I believe they can't admit that these things never really worked and were financing their research by making people believe they do without attracting massive class action law suits. The only thing they are doing now is what they can to reduce nuisance tripping.

The disposer switch turned on a sustained arc, rippling white ribbon about 3/8 wide jumping across a 1/2" gap between disposer & plumbing. The terrifying noise frightened off the Electrician we hired, until 2-weeks later when a Plumber fixed the disposer.

Ever ask him what he was smoking? :blink:

-Hal

 

[peter d]

The GE dual function breakers are actually made by Siemens, FWIW.

The ultimate way to solve all call back issues is to forgo the DF entirely, and use GE AFCI breakers and GFCI receptacles. Problem solved. :thumbsup:

 

[kwired]

We are experiencing less problems with newer units. We don’t use QO as a rule and diagnostics help. My guys have tracked down problems flagged as arcs @ customers. New vacuums helped at my house with only one AFCI still being affected by that noise. Wife has learned not to plug the vacum in there.

Don’t count me as one of the four yet though.

So far the only problems I have encountered that are repetitive tripping type problems I have always found a ground fault issue as the cause.
Very few random trips that you can't get to happen again. I mostly encounter QO or Homeline, they supposedly have the same key internal components.

 

[WillLloyd]

Spoke to Square D. They requested date information from the breakers. It will take me a week to get back to them..... FYI

And he did mention that smart meters were causing early breakers to trip (when the meters were pinged for information).

More to come.

 

[hbiss]

And he did mention that smart meters were causing early breakers to trip (when the meters were pinged for information).

That would be logical given that the same can happen when using 2-way radios near them.

-Hal

 

[WillLloyd]

Just to close this out, our breakers are older (previous version of the electronics and software used for the AFCI function). Square D understood the issues we have and indicated the newer breakers have addressed this. They are replacing our breakers for us.

Thanks for the input.

 

[JFletcher]

Just to close this out, our breakers are older (previous version of the electronics and software used for the AFCI function). Square D understood the issues we have and indicated the newer breakers have addressed this. They are replacing our breakers for us.

Thanks for the input.

Thank you for getting back to us with a solution. it's nice to know if I ever run into this particular problem in the field, a call to Square D will get me new parts for free. I am a bit surprised they told you as much as they did...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Regarding vacuum cleaners, we have had several calls where a vacuum will trip one of the three or four afci Breakers in the panel... would not trip the others. Replacing the offending breaker was the only solution...

 

[ptonsparky]

Just to close this out, our breakers are older (previous version of the electronics and software used for the AFCI function). Square D understood the issues we have and indicated the newer breakers have addressed this. They are replacing our breakers for us.

Thanks for the input.

Others have not been blessed with replacement breakers. Count yourself among the lucky ones.

 

[ActionDave]

Others have not been blessed with replacement breakers. Count yourself among the lucky ones.

I'm not asking you directly, I'm using your post to make a point. How does anyone know if all these new editions of breakers are any good at detecting anything any more?

 

[romex jockey]

I don't Dave

I only know what i read, and consider Dr Joe an authority on the issue

I also aI also know the 'supplementary afci' per 210.12 is code made to deal with a decade of pre combo predecessors ,avoiding a class action suit

~RJ~

 

[hbiss]

I'm not asking you directly, I'm using your post to make a point. How does anyone know if all these new editions of breakers are any good at detecting anything any more?

True. We know that regular breakers work because we can trip them with an overload or fault. We know that GFCI breakers work because we can create a leakage current and watch them trip.

With AFCIs it's like the snake oil salesman at a carnival. "Take my elixir and you will never die of the flu." :happysad:

-Hal