alterations and integrity

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jerod

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home generator install with ats. the contractor has cut the bus in the combo service between the main circuit breaker and bus to branch circuit breakers. he bends and adds lugs on all four ends and ran wire from the main to the ats. from the ats he comes back to the lugs on the branch bus. does 90.7 (alterations) or NEC2002 110.12c (integrity) play into this? what do you guys think? after seeing this i checked 7 other installations by three different contractors all done the same way and all jobs were inspected.

[ March 07, 2005, 12:12 AM: Message edited by: jerod ]
 
Re: alterations and integrity

I would say that that is a big violation of 110.3 and it most likely dissolved the warranty. I would not want to be on the bad end of a law suit when that kind of work is done. I would hate to see what other butcher jobs they had done?
 
Re: alterations and integrity

wayne, i am a industrial electrician and have been asked to install a 12kw home generator. i checked the neighborhood where there has been rash of gen installs lately, i wanted to see how the pros were doing it. i could not believe it. i checked further found all ats' were 2 pole and all gensets bonded, some had ground rods. i asked the homeowners if they were inspected. they all said yes. a few of these people are my friends i am wondering what to do, if anything.
 
Re: alterations and integrity

First I would try to find out who did the inspecting and if possible take some photo's I very surprised that this is in California? Most of the guys that post here from there makes it sound like you wouldn't get away with doing that kind of work there? But if there is a way to stay out of it by telling these home owners that they need to file claims with the electricians that did this type of work and that they now would have to have the service panel replaced to repairer the damage done. I would try to point them in the right direction. We had a company that tried doing work here and would have another person who would act like the inspector who came by and checked the work and even reg tagged a few of their jobs to look good but was nailed when one of the home owners saw the two talking at the truck and became suspicious and called the city which had police waiting when they returned to collect their money. So maybe the real AHJ wasn't involved? but I would do some checking but watch out putting yourself in between as if it was the real AHJ you could have problems with him afterwords. Try to let the home owner(s) handle the legal side.
 
Re: alterations and integrity

i live in the sierra mountains of california and the electricians i have run across are mostly non-union and not very well trained an very young. i have checked with the building department and asked if they had an inspector who specialized in electrical, they said they did. i lived in the bay area for many years before i moved and the electricians are very competent there. i may be getting these service change outs so i do not want to get on the bad side of the ahj.
 
Re: alterations and integrity

You could ask the AHJ in a polite manner if he knew about electricians cutting the panel buss to add lugs to setup for a generator? If he says no then maybe it could be an opening to enlighten him as to whats going on, as sometimes these small town AHJ's have there hands full and don't always have time to pull the panel cover and it slips through? But if he knows what to look for then he could watch for it on generator installs?
This could be a good inroad also you just have to play it by ear. Do you know any other AHJ's that might call this inspector that would leave you out of the picture? he could just say he was at a friends house and saw this and was wondering if he knew they were doing this.
I feel these people should not have to pay to have this repaired. or if they do they should be reimbursed by the original electricians.
 
Re: alterations and integrity

wayne, i work for a utility, so i get around the community a few hours everyday. today i observed an electrician installing a new service. i told him i was an electrician and i was installing a home generator and that i had a combo service and was buying a kohler generator with automatic transfer. i told him what type of service i had and asked how should i tie in the transfer switch to load and main. he told me to cut the bus and lug. i told him i thought this was a violation. he said every contractor on hill does it that way and as far as he knows nobody has been tagged. the area comprises of 3 jurisdictions. has anybody seen this?
 
Re: alterations and integrity

Jerod, what part of California is this? What city or county?

This isn't normal! Or acceptable. I can't even beleive that you can stop the average electrician on the street and he would say this is how it's done.

I know that there are some rural areas where things are a little more relaxed than other places but this is well over the top and even folks who want to beat the system and get a deal probably don't want this kind of cheesy stuff in their homes.

I think some one should force the AHJ to be aware of what it's signing off on. I know in some rural areas one inspector wears all the hats and sometimes that means electrical suffers the most.
 
Re: alterations and integrity

Maybe the AHj doesn`t realize that there has been an alteration :D I for one have never seen an AHJ not open a panel/control box on an inspection even if he /she has no knowledge of what they are inspecting ;) if the alteration is dangerous by all means que him/she in if not then why open pandoras box.Kinda like a vanity strip that doesn`t line up with a prewired box but a 1/2 hole is made to center the fixture over the sink is that hole UL listed no is it unsafe well NO ;)
 
Re: alterations and integrity

C'mon, Allen! There's a gaping Grand Canyon size difference between entering a fixture at a non-designed spot in the back of the fixture, and hacking busbars apart in a service, totally nulling the listing, and potentially creating a fire hazard!

The AHJ probably wasn't looking for anything that stupid, so he didn't see it! Jeez! :eek:
 
Re: alterations and integrity

Is there really ???? alter a transfer switch or alter a fixture what is the difference ??? Ul LISTING IS UL LISTING,I do not advocate altering ul listed items but have done so.If there is no danger to occupants then go for it but when we put people in danger I have a problem
 
Re: alterations and integrity

Allen, I'm not trying to judge anybody, but that sounds a little irresponsible to me.
 
Re: alterations and integrity

i live east of fresno in an island community with-in a national park . the town is split in half between two counties. i know one county has hard nosed inspectors and the other building dept has assured me there inspectors are trained and specialized. if this is true then they missed these jobs. the lugs they have added to the cut bus are less than 1/2" apart. the bus is loosely wrapped with 33 and the 3/0 is contorted bent passed 180 degrees and the neutral is pressed against a supply bus. the 2" coupling and 2 close nipples with lock-nuts only, contain the supply and load conductors with one grounded conductor and no ground wire. the ats is 2 pole and the generator is obviously bonded and also labled the same. the breaker on the 12kw is 50 amp and feeding whole house. the emt runs are less than 1 inch from grade running along a foundation wall. there is a #12 solid comming out of the pad that supports the generator and is attached to generator enclosure. the only thing i see that they did right was put the main ahead of the ats! i would not work with any electrician that did this, but i would love the inspector!
 
Re: alterations and integrity

allen/wayne, the 200amp main is attached to the bus on both sides. the bus was cut just pass the load side and had to be bent and twisted to where they could drill and attach the lugs, it ain't pretty. the distribution side same way, but not as bad. i have never worked with any electrician that would even think of doing this. listed or not
 
Re: alterations and integrity

physis, these homes are in the middle of the forest. if that homes goes and its summer, there is a good chance mine may go with it. that reminds me three houses have burned here in the last eight years all blamed electrical, lucky it was in the winter. last one was new years eve took two other houses with it plus a transformer and three propane tanks, didn't have to go far to watch the fire works didn't have a choice either, we were evacuated.
 
Re: alterations and integrity

I'm just curious, you mention both Sierras and Fresno Co. Are you anywhere near Auberry or Madera?

Edit: Stll can't spell

[ March 10, 2005, 02:44 PM: Message edited by: physis ]
 
Re: alterations and integrity

Oh my what a hack job, clearly voiding the UL listing of the panelboard. I would also venture a guess that it violates panelboard construction standards for panels with regard to enclosure space requirements for bending of conductors (408.3 directed to 312.6)and other things (see 408.55 and 408.56). Just envision how oversized a split main bus panelboard enclosure is compared to a standard one! This would also compromise bus bracing for fault current that the panel is designed to withstand.

I live in the northeast and after a major ice storm 2 years ago that knocked out power to most of CT for days many people bought into residential generator units. My brother purchased a generator residential "kit" that included an ATS/Sub-panel assembly and wiring harnesses for line and load connections. They required the installer to provide the necessary 2 pole subfeed c/b and install it in the existing panel and connect the provided wiring harnesses from the subfeed c/b to the line side of the switch, and from the load side of the sub-panel branch c/b's back to the existing branch circuits in the existing panelboard. The only thing I didn't like about it was that it required you to connect the branch circuits being fed from the emergency sub panel through the enclosure of the existing panel, a potential violation of 312.8 if additional wiring were to be installed from the c/b's that were freed up by swapping circuits over to the sub-panel. I guess the "kit" obtained approval under the premise that if fill was not violated before the install, it wouldn't be violated after the install either. It just opens things up for a potential violation should circuits be added in the future to the existing panel. All in all it was a clean installation, and very easy. The kit featured a Generac unit.

[ March 10, 2005, 04:37 PM: Message edited by: marketman ]
 
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