Am I losing my mind on not thinking today 20 amp circuits in a den or living room are

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bikeindy said:
AAAAAHHHHHHH! I thought this thread was dead.
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It's alive!
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Let the "20a is better" game begin.....
 
Update I talked with the head inspector and he told me to look up 210.52 a

He claims that a den or living room is a similar room to a breakfast or dining room etc. I then replied all the rooms involve food in some way cooking it eating it and so on so how can he compare a den with a breakfast area. Anyways I needed to get the job done so I changed got paid and left
 
ryandumas said:
Update I talked with the head inspector and he told me to look up 210.52 a

He claims that a den or living room is a similar room to a breakfast or dining room etc. I then replied all the rooms involve food in some way cooking it eating it and so on so how can he compare a den with a breakfast area. Anyways I needed to get the job done so I changed got paid and left
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So any room involving food needs a 20a circuit? I wonder if Dagwood Bumstead has a 20a in his bedroom because he eats his famous sandwiches in bed. Or in the basement during a poker game. Or in the garage when he's arguing with Herb about tools. Or in the yard having a picnic. What about his desk at work? Does his carpool need a 20a too?......:confused:
 
ryandumas said:
Update I talked with the head inspector and he told me to look up 210.52 a

He claims that a den or living room is a similar room to a breakfast or dining room etc. I then replied all the rooms involve food in some way cooking it eating it and so on so how can he compare a den with a breakfast area. Anyways I needed to get the job done so I changed got paid and left
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Call him back and tell him how much the change order is and that 210.52A says nothing about 20a at all.... Better yet send him the bill.

Should have AFCI'ed it too - as most guys sleep in their dens and living rooms - as they are so much like bedrooms... They might eat something in the bedrooms too - then where will we be? And the bath room is kind of like a closet with plumbing - they too should be treated the same - each with its own 20a circuit.... Inside is outside - up is down. Where does this ride stop?!?!?

If this was the head inspector? They need to retire him... In the future bump up all your prices with a line item with that guys name on it. Maybe a picture of him too....

Sorry - in a mood to crack heads.......
 
ITO said:
You would have gotten a red tag in my area too, our local building criteria does not allow 15 amp circuits or receptacles for convenience outlets in residential housing. Check the local building criteria in your area, it may not be NEC but the AHJ may have another set of rules.
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In theory on a general use circuit a 14 gauge wire protected by a 15 amp breaker is more safe then #12 protected by a 20 amp breaker. Most of your aappliance cords are rated for apprx. 7 amps. So if you had an over load problem the 15 amp breaker would trip faster.
 
ryandumas said:
Update I talked with the head inspector and he told me to look up 210.52 a

He claims that a den or living room is a similar room to a breakfast or dining room etc. I then replied all the rooms involve food in some way cooking it eating it and so on so how can he compare a den with a breakfast area. Anyways I needed to get the job done so I changed got paid and left
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This guy own a house?
 
buckofdurham said:
In theory on a general use circuit a 14 gauge wire protected by a 15 amp breaker is more safe then #12 protected by a 20 amp breaker. Most of your aappliance cords are rated for apprx. 7 amps. So if you had an over load problem the 15 amp breaker would trip faster.
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If that were true then we wouldn't want kitchen recep. that are used for appliances to be rated 20 amp.

The 20 amp breaker will trip just as fast on ground fault and short circuit. The overload will trip also when the circuit gets over the breaker rating for a period of time.
 
Tiger Electrical said:
I had another client complain that the circuit breaker tripped while vacuuming on a 15A circuit today. I knew you'd want to hear about it.

Dave
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See if you can find out what kind of vacuum was being used and/or the amp draw. Just for curiosity's sake, I was wondering if it is a standard model or an unusually large/rare/expensive model (not as rare as the VCFH, of course). It might determine if something is wrong with the vacuum or if something is wrong with the wire size.
 
Tiger Electrical said:
I had another client complain that the circuit breaker tripped while vacuuming on a 15A circuit today. I knew you'd want to hear about it.

Dave
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Dave, If anyone is in the service end of the business that is not a rare problem. pretty common, for owners of a good quality vacuum cleaners, the amps are up there, then the portable space heater is another, along with the entertainment centers with the plug strips, loaded to the limit, code min is great for production work where price controls the design. We use 14 for lighting circuits, on many projects, but on custom homes we take care to avoid min design, the custom owner is more likely to buy high end equipment, $490 vacuum cleaner rether then a $139 model
 
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Tiger Electrical said:
I had another client complain that the circuit breaker tripped while vacuuming on a 15A circuit today. I knew you'd want to hear about it.

Dave
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probably because the electrician had lights on that circuit (something I don't do). I have an industrial vacuum that doesn't trip a 15 Amp circuit. the design is bad not the wire size or breaker size.
 
ITO said:
Don?t know why but my local AJH has been publishing their own criteria in the form of an electrical code via city ordinance since before I can remember. This criteria supersedes the NEC, and causes problems from time to time with out of town (or state) engineers who are not familiar with it.
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The local AHJ in Indiana does not have the right to change the NEC; however, the State of Indiana does have that right. In the adoption process, the State of Indiana adds the Indiana amendments to make the IEC (Indiana Electrical Code). Many (most?) of our electricians and building officials are not aware of the IEC but they are aware of the NEC. :cool:
 
bikeindy said:
I have an industrial vacuum that doesn't trip a 15 Amp circuit. the design is bad not the wire size or breaker size.
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Back in the good old days when I still had lots of hair I had a hair dryer that would operate just fine on a 15 Amp circuit. People with even more hair wanted bigger hair dryers ( a blow torch with a blower ).

In my opinion a 20 Amp. circuit started to be required for a bath room receptacle to accomodated one appliance, the hair dryer. I don't remember anyone thinking that this was the dumbest idea ever. There are curling irons and hair dryers that will work on a 15 Amp circuit so why was a 20 Amp circuit required?

You don't hear anyone complaining nor trying to get the requirement for a 20 Amp. bathroom circuit changed. Shouldn't you be allowed to run two 15 Amp circuits?

When you say you may need a 20 Amp circuit for a vacuum cleaner just what makes that so different from needing one for a hair dryer.
 
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