another AFCI nuisance trip question

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You should also be aware that simple point of use thermal dynamics is the only viable ,as well as time honored answer on the market today. This is the biggest threat the afci industry is confronted with btw.

They'd buy it in a heartbeat, but the inventor won't budge. So the international patent war has continued now for quite some time

https://youtu.be/2OIldZAChpU

in closing, God speed & Good luck

~RJ~


I had time to watch your video in whole now that I'm home and I know what they are referring to:


https://thermarestor.co.uk/pdf/T2202.pdf

https://thermarestor.co.uk/thermal_monitoring.html


That will actually detect over heating and without any nuisance tripping. As apposed to mainland Europe's solution :roll:


https://youtu.be/8o6_k3G3o_0?t=2m5s

Yahhhh, I can imagine patent wars without seeing them. One is cheap, the other will require replacing every 7-10 years when the end of life logic asserts and will do little when the outlet gets toasty.
 
Happy :blink::? My emotions have nothing to do with this. This is business, plain and simple. I am bound by the NEC, by my licenses, by Minnesota State law, by the UL White Book, by my insurance carrier and by the expectation of my customer that I will perform for them in their best interest. I can face any branch circuit configuration in any age of a house with only single pole GE CAFCIs and standard breakers and handle ties and an occasional dual function AFCI/GFCI. This is good business. It would be better if the rest of the manufacturers figured out how to drop the ground fault sensing.

Buy a BR arc fault, trip it to ground, then tells us what happens. Otherwise it's just a bunch of noise.
 
Buy a BR arc fault, trip it to ground, then tells us what happens. Otherwise it's just a bunch of noise.


Your reputation as an AFCI scofflaw gives your words negative weight.

RJ sums it up nicely by noting one can be both compliant, and resist.
 
The CH line of Cutler Hammer AFCIs most definitely has ground fault sensing.

This is straight from the Instruction Leaflet for the 3/4" CH, the 1" BR, the 1" QB and the 1" CL CAFCIs. The instruction leaflet is available at this page. Expand the "Instructions" link under the "Documentation" tab.

The Eaton PDF that I link to (Effective June 2016) contains new information, also, about the BR line of Combination-Type AFCIs. The PDF states that the BR can exhibit the Trip Indication blink code by a lighted push button, available as an option.

The reason I point this out is that several others, here, at the Forum, have claimed that the Eaton type BR 1" Combination-Type AFCI had its ground fault sensing removed. Since the PDF shows the same blink codes as the CH, I submit that the BR still has ground fault detection, per this manufacturer document.

none of that clears up the issue of whether or not a BR AFCI has GFPE or not. A real life test is the only thing that will suffice at this point.
Here's the thing, Peter D, the instruction leaflet is the 110.3 Manufacturer's Instructions. If you were compliant, you'd know that the Manufacturer's Instructions is the only thing allowed to "compliantly" describe the features of the Eaton lines of AFCIs.

Any "testing" done will be anecdotal, and is not recognized by 110.3.

We've had unsubstantiated declarations at this Forum for five, or so, years that the Eaton BR line of AFCIs has no ground fault sensing component, but NOBODY, in all those years, is stepping up with ANY manufacturer's instructions, or any other 110.3 documentation, like I have.

I've called the hand. Show your cards. I've shown you mine.
 
Here's the thing, Peter D, the instruction leaflet is the 110.3 Manufacturer's Instructions. If you were compliant, you'd know that the Manufacturer's Instructions is the only thing allowed to "compliantly" describe the features of the Eaton lines of AFCIs.

Any "testing" done will be anecdotal, and is not recognized by 110.3.

We've had unsubstantiated declarations at this Forum for five, or so, years that the Eaton BR line of AFCIs has no ground fault sensing component, but NOBODY, in all those years, is stepping up with ANY manufacturer's instructions, or any other 110.3 documentation, like I have.

I've called the hand. Show your cards. I've shown you mine.

Fantastic. You've showed that you read some manufacturers toilet paper. It still doesn't prove anything when we have a N-G contact somewhere, and how it will respond.

I know for a fact that Homeline breakers have GFPE. They trip with a N-G contact. That's all I care about. I don't use BR products and I'm not about to spend $40 for one of their paper weights. However, I hope someone who does use their products will chime in.
 
Having a 30ma (or even 6ma) GF trip does not necessarily imply that it will detect an N-G connection when no load is applied. GFCI receptacles have an additional toroid and current detector for that function.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
 
Here's the thing, Peter D, the instruction leaflet is the 110.3 Manufacturer's Instructions. If you were compliant, you'd know that the Manufacturer's Instructions is the only thing allowed to "compliantly" describe the features of the Eaton lines of AFCIs.

Any "testing" done will be anecdotal, and is not recognized by 110.3.

We've had unsubstantiated declarations at this Forum for five, or so, years that the Eaton BR line of AFCIs has no ground fault sensing component, but NOBODY, in all those years, is stepping up with ANY manufacturer's instructions, or any other 110.3 documentation, like I have.

I've called the hand. Show your cards. I've shown you mine.
Why would the instructions have to tell us if there is a GF component? All they really need is installation, operation and maintenance instructions. Such instructions can but don't have to include technical information on how the item works.
 
That statement and a hill of beans gives us gas.

Have you spent hours upon hours chasing down tripping Homeline AFCI breakers as I have, only to discover a N-G contact somewhere as the cause? You want to take the manufacturers literature as gospel, but you discard real world experience with these devices. :roll::roll:
 
Why would the instructions have to tell us if there is a GF component? All they really need is installation, operation and maintenance instructions. Such instructions can but don't have to include technical information on how the item works.

:blink:

Seriously? Really? Please just actually READ the Eaton Instruction Leaflet Effective June 2016. It says what it says.

As for your existential quandary of "why" there is information in 110.3 Manufacturer's Instructions. . . you are on your own.
 
You want to take the manufacturers literature as gospel, but you discard real world experience with these devices. :roll::roll:

And now you are trying, evidently, to be cutely spiteful by making up your own tales about what I am doing in this thread. You are now, completely, not making any sense.

You are trolling.
 
And now you are trying, evidently, to be cutely spiteful by making up your own tales about what I am doing in this thread. You are now, completely, not making any sense.

You are trolling.

No.

I'm saying that I don't care what's in the manufacturers literature. The only thing that matters to me is how these breakers perform in the field when I go to troubleshoot tripping issues. Knowing whether or not they have GFPE in them is critical. If the BR breaker doesn't trip under real world conditions with a N-G fault and current flowing, then that's all I need to know about what's inside the box.

You dismissed my real world troubleshooting experience with Homeline breakers out of hand, so I think it's you who is doing the trolling.
 
afci manufacturers info is disingenuous ,and misleading.

this has been proven time and time again, by it's R&D creators

it's also a given than it is all beyond reproach, at least in what would be the normal avenues

anyone who's tried has summarilly been dismissed

~RJ~
 
afci manufacturers info is disingenuous ,and misleading.

this has been proven time and time again, by it's R&D creators

it's also a given than it is all beyond reproach, at least in what would be the normal avenues

anyone who's tried has summarilly been dismissed

~RJ~

:thumbsup:
 
afci manufacturers info is disingenuous ,and misleading.

this has been proven time and time again, by it's R&D creators

it's also a given than it is all beyond reproach, at least in what would be the normal avenues

anyone who's tried has summarilly been dismissed

~RJ~

If I am understanding you, I absolutely agree.

I find the terms and phrasing of specific parts (not all) of the documentation that we, electricians and inspectors, are allowed to, and in some cases, are required to use, to be very stilted and complex, steeped in jargon, and many times having multiple meanings.

I agree that the AFCI knowledge is largely hidden behind stone walls that we have not been able to get around for almost two decades. Lord knows, a lot of us have tried extremely hard for a very long time to get anything of substance about specific AFCI solutions. Doing the troubleshooting of Premises Wiring that is AFCI protected requires all of the "Industry Sanctioned" information, and any other real facts that can be gathered.

The trouble I'm having, in this thread, is the seeming need of some to say that Eaton's Instruction Leaflet effective June 2016 is "fake news" or worse, when, in fact it is, simply "Industry Sanctioned" information.

And, for me, this is the first real document (Industry Sanctioned) in five years, that says the MH Forum rumor that Eaton BR style AFCIs have no GF component is JUST A RUMOR.
 
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