another AFCI nuisance trip question

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i'm going to read that ieee doc. but i can swear no matter what kind of breaker i have used if i have a bare ground wire touching the neutral screws on a recept, it will trip the breaker.

am i missing something you guys are saying? maybe that if i do this with a GE breaker it WONT trip? i could believe it because i rarely ever use GE breakers.
 
bullheimer said:
i'm going to read that ieee doc. but i can swear no matter what kind of breaker i have used if i have a bare ground wire touching the neutral screws on a recept, it will trip the breaker.

am i missing something you guys are saying? maybe that if i do this with a GE breaker it WONT trip? i could believe it because i rarely ever use GE breakers.
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You aren't missing what I'm saying. If a branch circuit has a ground fault on its neutral, the GE combination type AFCI will tolerate it and not trip.

But that's not what makes the GE AFCI so versatile. It is the ability of single pole breakers with a handle tie to protect a shared neutral multiwire branch circuit where the GE breakers really shine.

Here, look at this GE AFCI Advantage web page: http://www.geindustrial.com/AFCIadvantage

There are two videos at the bottom of the page. I recommend the second of them (the right hand video).
 
al hildenbrand said:
If I am understanding you, I absolutely agree.

I find the terms and phrasing of specific parts (not all) of the documentation that we, electricians and inspectors, are allowed to, and in some cases, are required to use, to be very stilted and complex, steeped in jargon, and many times having multiple meanings.

I agree that the AFCI knowledge is largely hidden behind stone walls that we have not been able to get around for almost two decades. Lord knows, a lot of us have tried extremely hard for a very long time to get anything of substance about specific AFCI solutions. Doing the troubleshooting of Premises Wiring that is AFCI protected requires all of the "Industry Sanctioned" information, and any other real facts that can be gathered.

The trouble I'm having, in this thread, is the seeming need of some to say that Eaton's Instruction Leaflet effective June 2016 is "fake news" or worse, when, in fact it is, simply "Industry Sanctioned" information.

And, for me, this is the first real document (Industry Sanctioned) in five years, that says the MH Forum rumor that Eaton BR style AFCIs have no GF component is JUST A RUMOR.
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Understood ,and i aplaude your tenacity Al

But you see, it's a tad more than just Eaton, the manufactureres banded together after the debut of the listed supplemental arc protection circuit breaker to thwart the looming class action suits
(none of which came to fruition)

>>>> https://www.afcisafety.org/

There's more doc's there, if you wish to continue pursing parsing them out, along with a world of contact info

One can even request a nema speaker to appear before trade groups , like my green mountain chapter IAEI did . One can then be subjected first hand to the same perennial canards and twisted stats , assuming one's stomach prevails (i doubt the dude they sent will ever return)

Again, I aplaude all those who would question them

~RJ~
 
Thanks RJ.

romex jockey said:
But you see, it's a tad more than just Eaton, . . .
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For others reading this thread, I have never said "just Eaton" about any of what I am attempting to get communication going about. RJ wants to take the thread sideways into the history of everything AFCI rather than answer a simple direct question.

For the benefit of the Opening Post questioner's upcoming job involving a GE service panel, I have attempted to get additional clarity.

And I have attempted to discover the name of the MH Forum rumored second AFCI breaker manufacturer and its model designation. (Other threads show the Eaton Type BR Combination AFCI is the rumored second breaker without a ground fault sensing component.)

During this thread, I have researched, and found a new Eaton Instruction Leaflet (NEC 110.3 Manufacturer's Instructions) effective June 2016 for the entire line of Eaton Combination Type AFCIs that says the entire line of Eaton Combination Type AFCIs has an Indication LED Blink Code table that includes a unique blink code for a ground fault caused interruption of power.

In summary. The rumored second AFCI with no GF DOES NOT EXIST. There is only ONE Combination Type AFCI breaker without GF, and that is made by GE.
 
During this thread, I have researched, and found a new Eaton Instruction Leaflet (NEC 110.3 Manufacturer's Instructions) effective June 2016 for the entire line of Eaton Combination Type AFCIs that says the entire line of Eaton Combination Type AFCIs has an Indication LED Blink Code table that includes a unique blink code for a ground fault caused interruption of power.
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Nice that you've found that , but seriously, all it proves is the widget has little blinky lights Al

~RJ~
 
In Lieu of Literature - Verify

In Lieu of Literature - Verify

It would be nice to have clear and trusted manufacturers Literature for sure.
Back in 2014 felt I needed to know and so I verified.

I have not opened/tested/reverse engineered any other AFCIs since.
If I were real interested this is how I would "Know".
QO115CAFCI_ela.jpg
 
al hildenbrand said:
:blink:

Seriously? Really? Please just actually READ the Eaton Instruction Leaflet Effective June 2016. It says what it says.

As for your existential quandary of "why" there is information in 110.3 Manufacturer's Instructions. . . you are on your own.
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What leaflet? Have a link?

I don't install Eaton as a general rule so not too familiar with them (especially AFCI's) in the first place.

Many of us are satisfied with a simple field test of making an intentional ground fault and if that trips the device is a pretty good indication it must have GFP on some level. Since that isn't good enough for you maybe you are the troll here?? If you want other proof then maybe you should contact Eaton instead of members of an open forum.

ETA: I don't want to come off as too rude, but you are asking the wrong people for as specific of an answer you seem to be looking for, if someone finds what you are looking for great, but don't put the rest of us down for not meeting your expectations.
 
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ELA said:
It would be nice to have clear and trusted manufacturers Literature for sure.
Back in 2014 felt I needed to know and so I verified.

I have not opened/tested/reverse engineered any other AFCIs since.
If I were real interested this is how I would "Know".
View attachment 20929
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I well remember your posts from the period. I greatly appreciated your sharing your investigations and observations.
 
kwired said:
What leaflet? Have a link?
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Fascinating. You really haven't read this thread.

kwired said:
ETA: I don't want to come off as too rude, but you are asking the wrong people for as specific of an answer you seem to be looking for, . . .
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Kwired, please, just read the thread. THEN talk about it. RJ declared there is a second AFCI breaker without GF, and I asked him the make and model which he never did directly answer. That was my question. The existence of a second AFCI without GF has been rumored for five years. . . Now, if it did exist five years ago, it doesn't now, in my opinion, based upon the Eaton Instruction Leaflet that I link to several times in this thread.

And, Kwired, what you are missing in my asking for documents, is the compliment that is included for you. I expect that everyone reading this thread has rich, complex, and varied experience with the electrical field that is different than mine, and that it is quite possible that you, or someone else, will have knowledge and fact to share with all of us that will help all of us.
 
al hildenbrand said:
Fascinating. You really haven't read this thread.



Kwired, please, just read the thread. THEN talk about it. RJ declared there is a second AFCI breaker without GF, and I asked him the make and model which he never did directly answer. That was my question. The existence of a second AFCI without GF has been rumored for five years. . . Now, if it did exist five years ago, it doesn't now, in my opinion, based upon the Eaton Instruction Leaflet that I link to several times in this thread.

And, Kwired, what you are missing in my asking for documents, is the compliment that is included for you. I expect that everyone reading this thread has rich, complex, and varied experience with the electrical field that is different than mine, and that it is quite possible that you, or someone else, will have knowledge and fact to share with all of us that will help all of us.
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I don't have your documents and don't intent to look for them. Go find them yourself if you want them.

I read the thread and all I am getting out of it is you crying about nobody answering your question in the way you want it answered.

I'm done here.
 
kwired said:
I don't have your documents and don't intent to look for them. Go find them yourself if you want them.
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The links, from me that you can't seem to read in this thread, provide you the document I started asking RJ for. I'm sharing it with you.
 
al hildenbrand said:
The links, from me that you can't seem to read in this thread, provide you the document I started asking RJ for. I'm sharing it with you.
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Some of use are taking it a step further and demanding real world proof that the BR AFCI will trip under N-G fault conditions. We are not taking some manufacturers leaflet at face value. These breakers are constantly being modified and "updated", in addition to their dubious origins to begin with, hence our skepticism. Why is that so hard for you to understand?
 
kwired said:
Why do you keep asking for it then? I don't really care what is in it and don't read every link that gets posted here.
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It is obvious that you are telling us what I am doing without the benefit of reading what I have said I am doing.
 
al hildenbrand said:
Fascinating. You really haven't read this thread.



Kwired, please, just read the thread. THEN talk about it. RJ declared there is a second AFCI breaker without GF, and I asked him the make and model which he never did directly answer. That was my question. The existence of a second AFCI without GF has been rumored for five years. . . Now, if it did exist five years ago, it doesn't now, in my opinion, based upon the Eaton Instruction Leaflet that I link to several times in this thread.

And, Kwired, what you are missing in my asking for documents, is the compliment that is included for you. I expect that everyone reading this thread has rich, complex, and varied experience with the electrical field that is different than mine, and that it is quite possible that you, or someone else, will have knowledge and fact to share with all of us that will help all of us.
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Said GF rumour came from this forum Al , i may have proliferated it, but did not start it.

That said, you need realize the entire industry revolves around propaganda .

There are many manufacturers contacts in the link i posted.
Anyone if they'd wish can call /email their dedicated afci tech support #'s, with any Q they'd like.

Even the GF one you're after.

ABB
1-888-385-1221, Option 1
Eaton Electrical
1-800-326-9573
GE Consumer & Industrial
1-800-782-8061
Schneider Electric/Square D Company
1-888-778-2733
Siemens Industry, Inc.
1-800-333-7421

UL has an 'afci training course'>>> https://lms.ulknowledgeservices.com/catalog/display.resource.aspx?resourceid=405152

White papers>>>https://www.esfi.org/resource/arc-fault-circuit-interrupters-afcis-prevent-electrical-fires-543

Identifying Combination Arc Fault Circuit Breakers By Manufacturer Type >>https://www.afcisafety.org/breaker-type/



Good luck!

~RJ~
 
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This thread:

Al: I found a manufacturers leaflet that says it has GFPE because of blinky lights.

Us: We need real world proof. We don't trust the literature.

Al: But the literature!

Us: We still need proof.

Al: But the literature!!

Us: You aren't getting this, are you?
 
Ahh, Peter D, you are such a charming little AFCI scofflaw.

I'm quite happy not being blindered by the limited view in your "real world".
 
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