Another Do I need a UL Listing or not question.

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backlitbox

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Pleasant Grove, UT, USA
We make back lit fine art. We use LED strips to back light a polyester film that is super high quality. We have a customer that insists that our product is UL listed, but our product is entirely Low Voltage. We have supplied them with UL Listed transformers (Class 2 https://www.magnitudeinc.com/produc...isted/e-60w-12vdc-dimmable-class2-led-driver/ We even showed them the proper Class 2 wire to use for the wiring in the building. Our competitor has a product made by Samsung that is UL listed, but I cannot find any standards that they have met, they simply got a signage stamp, which I'm sure they just paid for.
 

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If this is a portable device that is plugged into a general use receptacle I do not believe you need a UL listing. However a customer certainly has the right to not purchase your product because it is not listed. It does not need UL it can be another listing lab like ETL or...
Also your insurance may have issue if it is not listed.

If it is bolted to a wall an electrical inspector could demand a listing.
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
Not sure if it is a sign or a light fixture, but the NEC requires listing for both of those.
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Really a cord connected low voltage item is regulated by the NEC Were is that code section? I can see if it permanently affixed or hardwired.

Learn something every day.
 
Here is what UL48 covers.
1.1 These requirements cover all electric signs, art forms and outline lighting for use in accordance with the National Electrical Code, NFPA 70.
1.2 Electric signs include all signs (regardless of voltage) that are electrically operated and/or electrically illuminated, including but not limited to the following methods of illumination: incandescent, fluorescent, high intensity discharge (HID), electric discharge tubing including neon tubing, light-emitting diode (LED), skeleton neon tubing, cold-cathode lamps, and electroluminescence. Unless otherwise noted the term "sign" includes signs, outline lighting, art forms, and skeleton neon tubing.
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As to whether or not the NEC requires it, that's another aspect. Article 600 has very similar wording to the UL standard as to what it covers, including the term "art forms", and including the term "portable" which could be interpreted to cover something that plugs in to an outlet. 600.3 says they must be "listed", without direct mention of UL of course, because generally the NEC accepts any NRTL defined in the OSHA documents pertaining to Nationally Recognized Testing Labs. UL is just the most well known of those.
https://www.osha.gov/dts/otpca/nrtl/nrtllist.html

Then Article 100 defines an electric sign as any “fixed, stationary, or portable self-contained, electrically illuminated utilization equipment with words or symbols designed to convey information or attract attention.”

So bottom line, yes. You need listing.

I had a short lived business venture with an artist once to make and sell illuminated backgammon boards where his artwork comprised the points of the play area. We got UL48 listing for it (with fluorescent lamps, pre-LED), it was not a big deal. I attended a class that UL offered, produced a written procedure to follow in assembling them, then submitted a sample to UL for testing. I think the whole thing cost me around $1500 (albeit in 1982).
 
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Sierrasparky said:
Really a cord connected low voltage item is regulated by the NEC Were is that code section? I can see if it permanently affixed or hardwired.

Learn something every day.
Click to expand...
It says only applies to things that are installed, but that means you have to get rid of about half of 422.
 
Jraef said:
Here is what UL48 covers.


As to whether or not the NEC requires it, that's another aspect. Article 600 has very similar wording to the UL standard as to what it covers, including the term "art forms", and including the term "portable" which could be interpreted to cover something that plugs in to an outlet. 600.3 says they must be "listed", without direct mention of UL of course, because generally the NEC accepts any NRTL defined in the OSHA documents pertaining to Nationally Recognized Testing Labs. UL is just the most well known of those.
https://www.osha.gov/dts/otpca/nrtl/nrtllist.html

Then Article 100 defines an electric sign as any “fixed, stationary, or portable self-contained, electrically illuminated utilization equipment with words or symbols designed to convey information or attract attention.”

So bottom line, yes. You need listing.

I had a short lived business venture with an artist once to make and sell illuminated backgammon boards where his artwork comprised the points of the play area. We got UL48 listing for it (with fluorescent lamps, pre-LED), it was not a big deal. I attended a class that UL offered, produced a written procedure to follow in assembling them, then submitted a sample to UL for testing. I think the whole thing cost me around $1500 (albeit in 1982).
Click to expand...

Do you know if there is anything in UL48 that would apply to us with this low voltage application? I am hoping they will say "there are no real standards that apply to your product therefore you get a sticker, please pay us." $1500 would be awesome (even $3000), but I don't think I have time to take a class before we need to get rolling in production to meet the deadline.

Thanks,
Fax
 
Sierrasparky said:
Really a cord connected low voltage item is regulated by the NEC Were is that code section? I can see if it permanently affixed or hardwired.

Learn something every day.
Click to expand...

It will essentially be hardwired because it will be run off of transformers that will be remote mounted and the low voltage wires will be run through the walls to each installation location.
 
backlitbox said:
Do you know if there is anything in UL48 that would apply to us with this low voltage application? I am hoping they will say "there are no real standards that apply to your product therefore you get a sticker, please pay us." $1500 would be awesome (even $3000), but I don't think I have time to take a class before we need to get rolling in production to meet the deadline.

Thanks,
Fax
Click to expand...

Go back and reread the post by jraef and the UL standard. He bolded this part: (regardless of voltage).
 
backlitbox said:
Do you know if there is anything in UL48 that would apply to us with this low voltage application? I am hoping they will say "there are no real standards that apply to your product therefore you get a sticker, please pay us." $1500 would be awesome (even $3000), but I don't think I have time to take a class before we need to get rolling in production to meet the deadline.

Thanks,
Fax
Click to expand...

backlitbox said:
It will essentially be hardwired because it will be run off of transformers that will be remote mounted and the low voltage wires will be run through the walls to each installation location.
Click to expand...

Being hardwired I would agree with others that UL is required. I thought that it was plugged in like a lamp and I did not believe that the NEC covers portable equipment not fastened in place. It appears I stand corrected!:slaphead:
 
Now that we know it has to be listed, is anyone familiar enough with UL48 to know if there are any standards that would apply to us? Things we would need to do to be compliant with the standard? Here is the simple guts to our product:

2017-08-28 11.17.58 (Small).jpg
 
backlitbox said:
Now that we know it has to be listed, is anyone familiar enough with UL48 to know if there are any standards that would apply to us? Things we would need to do to be compliant with the standard? Here is the simple guts to our product:

View attachment 18393
Click to expand...

Now it's time to contact a NRTL for that information.

Roger
 
I don't see any drivers...

Are the strips UL Listed or Recognized Components? if so, it's a lot easier. If not, they are going to put you through testing (with the driver(s)).

Not sure what your materials are but if that back plate is metal or in any way conductive, they will want to see a ground.

Other than that it looks fine, but my opinion is worth diddley, it's the listing agency that matters.
 
What if it were run by batteries instead of power from the wall?

Might that exclude the need for UL?

If so, add a small rechargeable battery and supply the wall wart UL listed power supply ah, I mean charger. :)

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
 
markebenson said:
I was told that a CE listing is accepted many times. Would be interested in your thougts.
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It's a lie told by sales people who only have a CE mark* and don't want to miss out on sales of their products because of a lack of an NRTL listing of any sort.

* CE is not a "listing" process at all, it is just a "self certification" mark that means the manufacturer claims to have met certain European ("CE" is for the French term "Conformité Européene") requirements, mostly for EMI and RFI emissions. Nobody has to test it for the manufacturer to make that claim, but in the EU, making the claim and then having someone (like a competitor) challenge it can mean getting your product banned if it fails. If nobody challenges it, you can get away with making crap and using the claim to get sales for a long time. The Chinese do this a lot now. But there is no such process here in North America, we only use what are called "third party" testing and listing agencies, collectively now referred to as NRTLs (Nationally Recognized Testing Labs), of which UL is the largest and most well known (but not the only one).
 
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