another electricution - metal street pole-baltimore!

[charlie tuna]

someone told me another innocent person was killed by touching a metal street pole!

[ December 20, 2004, 05:14 PM: Message edited by: charlie tuna ]

 

[petersonra]

Re: another electricution - metal street pole-baltimore!

when will this country ban light poles?

 

[bphgravity]

Re: another electricution - metal street pole-baltimore!

I thought I had read that it was dog that walked over a metal utility box cover. I guess this is the second time in under a year.

I also read about the college student in NY that got electrocuted from a metal utility box cover. Her family received the largest cash settlement in that ststes history. Something like $7 million.

 

[charlie tuna]

Re: another electricution - metal street pole-baltimore!

i have heard we kill(countrywide) almost one hundred people a year on public utility poles, cross walk poles, metal bus bench enclosures,etc!

 

[ken987]

Re: another electricution - metal street pole-baltimore!

Working for the NJDOT I know why there are so many of these, I work with unqualified people who do not understand bonding and grounding. In fact one quote I heard while another worker was getting his son in law hired was you don't need to know electrical code to work here. I've been to may jobs where the equipment grounding wires were flopping in the breeze. Alot of these guys think that as long as the pole is bonded to the ground rod at each base it's properly grounded and bonded.

 

[charlie]

Re: another electricution - metal street pole-baltimore!

It is totally dependant upon the area and the entity that is responsible for the work.

 

[charlie tuna]

Re: another electricution - metal street pole-baltimore!

charlie member #59,
the problem is everywhere - from the west coast to the east coast - and it is the combination of unqualified and/or untrained qualified people working and/or maintaining these metallic surfaces and the practice of installing ground rods at pole bases. the ground rod practice increased the chance of error by people who don't fully understand grounding and bonding and who do not have the proper instruments to confirm that the metallic surface has a low resistance return path back to the power source. the local tv network in baltimore exposed the poor maintainance practices by showing hundreds of poles with no grounds ,covers missing, wires hanging out of the splice compartment,etc.. consider in any state -- 03:00 am --a car hits a pole and shears it off at the ground. what effects can occur not only at the accident site - but the pole next in line or perhaps two poles down where there wasn't much slack in the bond wire? the power company isolates the problem at the pole and the utility company replaces the pole-- but what about the other poles and surfaces?? the first step in reducing these deaths should be by removing the practice of a driven ground at pole bases--it is useless!!!

 

[tom baker]

Re: another electricution - metal street pole-baltimore!

I am on the Illuminating Engineering Society (IES)Roadway Lighting Committee and attend the IES street and area lighting coferences, which is mostly utilities. I also write articles for the IMSA Journal (traffic signal).
1. I agree 100% with 987. The reason we have ground rods at some traffic signal installations is the "civil engineer drives the bus on trafic signal installations", they don't understand the role of ground rods.
2. for utilites doing street lighting, and this is how many got started, example "smithville utility and lighting", they follow the rules in the NESC, which are performance based, where the NEC is prescriptive based. IE the NESC is to be used with qualified persons. The result should be the same. However for lighting systems under 600v, the utilites could follow the NEC art 250 for its prescriptive rules on grounding, and of course what we really want is bonding.
Here is the article I wrote on the NEC vs the NESC.
http://www.imsasafety.org/journal/mayjun/mayjun8.htm

Its missing the great graphic by Mike Holt with the dog at the energized metal pole. PM me with your email if you would like the complete article with graphic.

[ December 20, 2004, 09:03 PM: Message edited by: tom baker ]

 

[charlie]

Re: another electricution - metal street pole-baltimore!

I do not know where this came from but I got it in an e-mail (I assume it is from one of the newspapers). Maybe someone from New York can confirm it.

New York Regulators Set `Stray Voltage' Safeguards (12/20/04)

New York regulators approved rules last week aimed at ensuring the public safety of electric systems, including new requirements for annual testing for "stray voltage" from power facilities such as streetlights, service boxes, transformers and poles.

Any facility testing positive for stray voltage "will be guarded immediately and continuously until the utility has made the facility safe," the New York Public Service Commission said Wednesday.

The new inspections, to be phased in over the next three years, were spurred by the death of a New York City woman in January after she came into contact with an electric service box maintained by Consolidated Edison Co.

In order to enforce the new rules, the PSC set performance targets and utilities failing to meet the target will see their return on equity reduced.

 

[iwire]

Re: another electricution - metal street pole-baltimore!

Here in the Boston, MA area we had two dogs killed from energized man hole covers.

The NStar spokeswomen said it was nothing to worry about as we (humans) wear shoes when walking in the city.

More recently a 19 - 20 year old was nearly killed when a manhole cover came through the windshield of a car he was riding in.

The manhole cover was launched in the air from a manhole explosion and they drove into it.

Admittedly that is a rare occurrence but it was a tough year for NStars PR.

[ December 21, 2004, 05:57 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]

 

[ken987]

Re: another electricution - metal street pole-baltimore!

My uncle works for con ed, the death with the lady and the dog is true, according to him that box had some cut off service wires in it that were taped and resting against a metal surface. I belive because of the wet conditions, and salt and calcium chloride degrade the insulation of the wires there was voltage on that box.

On another note was working for a contractor. got a call people were getting shocked off a light pole. Me and a older mechanic go out, he said this is stuiped, as he grabbed the pole. After I helped him up off the ground from behind the bushes he landed behind he was a believer. there was a 190V on that pole. Not bonded correctly

 

[charlie]

Re: another electricution - metal street pole-baltimore!

In my opinion, in both cases, the electric utility involved should be raked over the coals. Keeping hot conductors away from the manhole cover is required and so is proper grounding. Leaving out the argument about which method is best. Not following proper procedure is criminal, not just a Code violation.

 

[physis]

Re: another electricution - metal street pole-baltimore!

I have two comments:

[1] We're very lucky that this sort of thing is almost nonexistent. I don't know how we can ever get to perfect.

[2]

By Charlie Tuna:

untrained qualified people

I know this happens and I agree it's entirely unacceptable.

Edit: Lucky isn't the right word.

[ December 26, 2004, 02:51 AM: Message edited by: physis ]

 

[ken987]

Re: another electricution - metal street pole-baltimore!

1] We're very lucky that this sort of thing is almost nonexistent. I don't know how we can ever get to perfect

It's not nonexistent, there are plenty of energized poles and manhole covers waiting for someone to complete the path to ground. And as Tom said the civil eng. is driving the bus and has no idea of grounding and bonding.

Where I work may times it comes down to people not giving a @$@# (I edited it my self Charlie)
and their to lazy and don't know better to bond the pole right.
Like after a knock down it's rush, rush,?rush?, just get the pole and indications working, no attention paid to the bonding. Like here alot of older jobs are depended on the bonding of raceway, because the conduit is the EGC and many times in a base it's not uncommon to see only one raceway bonded to the pole and the others aren't bonded together, maybe the Raceway that's the EGC is bonded to the pole and maybe it's not.

 

[charlie]

Re: another electricution - metal street pole-baltimore!

It's not nonexistent, there are plenty of energized poles and manhole covers waiting for someone to complete the path to ground.

Ken, I can't agree with you about the manhole covers and rings. However, I suspect it is true that some metal poles are energized and are in need of repair. If they are maintained by an investor owned electric utility (not a municipal or an REMC), I am betting the problem will be taken care of as soon as it is reported. Traffic poles are usually owned by the city and maintained by an outside contractor. If that is the case, it depends on the city as to the speed at which it is repaired.

By the way, thanks for the edit.

 

[charlie tuna]

Re: another electricution - metal street pole-baltimore!

i think the national electrical code should consider evaluating the practice (and the practibility) of installing ground rods at poles.
one life is too many to loose when it can be prevented, and prevented by reducing job installation and maintainance costs. it may also help to educate people about grounding and bonding!

[ December 27, 2004, 08:53 AM: Message edited by: charlie tuna ]

 

[charlie]

Re: another electricution - metal street pole-baltimore!

I think the national electrical code should consider evaluating the practice (and the practicality) of installing ground rods at poles.

I agree with the thought Charlie. However, the NEC has no authority to do anything like that. A proposal must be made and substantiation provided for the Code Making Panels to act. That is in process now with the higher ambient temperature requirements for raceways exposed to the sun. The first proposal and its documentation was inadequate for a change to be made in the Code requirements but there is a FPN covering the concept.

One life is too many to lose when it can be prevented, and prevented by reducing job installation and maintenance costs.

Again, I agree with you but the Code Making Panel can not just make up the rules. You have to give them cold, hard facts from something more than anecdotal evidence.

It may also help to educate people about grounding and bonding!

Sorry, the NEC is not involved in education. Forums like this, the NFPA, the IAEI, and various teachers, instructors, and seminar presenters will do the instruction but only after the Code has been changed. As it stands now, there are classes, books, and seminars on grounding. Our host has some great material that covers this subject.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: another electricution - metal street pole-baltimore!

Charlie T,

i think the national electrical code should consider evaluating the practice (and the practibility) of installing ground rods at poles.

Are you suggesting that ground rods will make these types of installations safer? If so I don't agree. They would do nothing to prevent these tragic accidents if the voltage involved is not "distribution" voltage. The only thing that can improve the safety is a properly installed and maintained EGC back to the power source.
Don

edit to fix "quote"

[ December 27, 2004, 10:40 AM: Message edited by: don_resqcapt19 ]

 

[charlie]

Re: another electricution - metal street pole-baltimore!

Don, I was making the assumption that he was talking about educating people about not using additional grounding electrodes at poles. Additionally, educating people about not using the earth as a fault current return.

Charlie Tuna, the rules are already in the Code. you are right though, the problem is education.

 

[friebel]

Re: another electricution - metal street pole-baltimore!

This message is addressed specifically to, First, Charlie Tuna, and Second to don_resqcapt 19
I have been waiting for someone to respond to Charlie Tuna's Thread, where he stated, " we should be enforcing the installing of ground rods at the light poles".And then don replies with his thread that this will not solve the issue. The only way is to have an EGC to go from the light pole back to the source.And Don's thread is the correct way.The NEC states in Section 250.56 to have a resistance to ground of 25 ohms or less.
Now we need to put Ohms Law to work I= E/R,
I=120/25 = 4.8 Amps. Now Charlie, how is a ampere reading of 4.8 amps going to trip out a 15 amp fuse or breaker. Bottom line, it will not.
But, if you have a good EGC going back to the source, now you will trip out the fuse or breaker.
For example: A # 10 AWG copper wire has a resistance of 1.21 ohms per 1000 feet.
I=E/R I=120/1.2 = 100 amperes, Now Charlie, do you see what I am describing, the 100 amps will now trip out the 15 amp breaker.
You can still have a ground rod at the light pole, but it would only be for lightning protection, and/or high voltage surges.