Anybody want to discuss that LCDI thing on window A/C cords?

[hbiss]

But my main point of contention wasn't so much ease of access, but with the notion that the NEC needs to be dumbed down so that it would be intelligible by someone who doesn't know anything about electricity.

And that's exactly the kind of person who has no business doing electrical work!! I'm sure you can find a book or video on how to remove your appendix. Good luck with that too.

-Hal

 

[Fred B]

And that's exactly the kind of person who has no business doing electrical work!! I'm sure you can find a book or video on how to remove your appendix. Good luck with that too.

-Hal

Here's your sign

 

[Fred B]

And that's exactly the kind of person who has no business doing electrical work!! I'm sure you can find a book or video on how to remove your appendix. Good luck with that too.

-Hal

The man who cut out his own appendix

Russian surgeon, Leonid Rogozov, got appendicitis while on an Antarctic mission - he had to operate on himself.

www.bbc.com

 

[kwired]

440.65 covers cords on AC units. It says they must have a factory provided LCDI, AFCI, or HDCI on the end of the cord. Not sure what the substantiation was other than these are heavy, taken out yearly and stored, and maybe the cord easily gets crunched. Seems to go back to at least 2005, maybe older.

Some other details here:

Why is LCDI protection required on window A/Cs *but not anything else*?

Background: LCDI cord sets have individually shielded conductors, and a circuit in the plug that detects current through the shields and cuts off the power. They are meant to detect live-to-neutral

diy.stackexchange.com

Understanding Ground Fault and Leakage Current Protection | UL Solutions Code Authorities

This article will help to understand ground fault and leakage protection and differentiate the various types of protective devices (including ground-fault circuit interrupters) used today and clarify their intended uses.

code-authorities.ul.com

ACSC100 LCDI Cord Tripping Causes | Schneider Electric USA

I don't understand why it has any business being in the NEC, this is factory installed and should only be part of listing requirements. Is also not really a part of the premises wiring.

Has any code inspector failed an older unit that did not come with this on the cord? If so should he have failed it? If they for some reason want AFCI or GFCI protection it certainly could be added to the receptacle outlet or the branch circuit device. If it is existing installation from before this was required is not a violation IMO, and if the unit gets replaced with a new one it very likely will now have the device on the cord - not because of NEC but because of listing standards.

 

[kwired]

So I've seen melted outlets and cord ends on windows ACs more than should happen. I think this may have been an attempt to limit that or other hazards from these. Remember they're the goto for hotels and so they might need to be redundant in their safety

That doesn't happen nearly as often if one doesn't use the low grade receptacles that are only like a dollar or so. And if this is contains AFCI or even GFCI technology it won't really detect this issue anyway. At least not until it has failed to a point where maybe an actual ground fault has developed.

 

[Fred B]

I don't understand why it has any business being in the NEC, this is factory installed and should only be part of listing requirements. Is also not really a part of the premises wiring.

Amazon and TEMU garbage. Seen WAY to much of this junk out there. so not just this window AC issue but a lot of other items.

(Good) By adding it to the NEC it adds to enforcement side regulating new installations and not just the listing side given garbage being brought in.
(Bad) It gives warning to installers to Just leave it out of the window until the inspector leaves.

 

[gene6]

I don't understand why it has any business being in the NEC, this is factory installed and should only be part of listing requirements.

The NEC gets adopted as a law, product standards are voluntary and need to follow the NEC.

NEC does not even require AC units to be listed.
If a product is listed it needs no further inspection 90.7

Is also not really a part of the premises wiring.

Does the cord not have conductors and do you not install it?

Definition of PREMISE

a proposition antecedently supposed or proved as a basis of argument or inference; specifically : either of the first two propositions of a syllogism from which the conclusion is drawn; something assumed or taken for granted : presupposition… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

There is nothing in 90.2(B) that says 'ends at the receptacle outlet'
90.7 says "factory installed internal wiring".
The NEC has a long history of regulating appliance cords, just look at range and dryer cords.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

So if you're in the jurisdiction of the D.C. Circuit (District of Columbia) you can use this as a defense. Outside of D.C., you're still subject to getting Cease and Desist letters of the NFPA, I guess. I wonder why Public Resource hasn't relocated from Sonoma County (9th Circuit) to D.C. Probably because California Wine Country is a nicer place to live.

Personally, I don't find PDFs of scanned pages very useful. But my main point of contention wasn't so much ease of access, but with the notion that the NEC needs to be dumbed down so that it would be intelligible by someone who doesn't know anything about electricity.

There was a similar case in the 5th Circuit in 2002. That covers Mississippi, Louisiana, and Texas. Veeck vs Southern Building Code Conference.

 

[BarryO]

I don't understand why it has any business being in the NEC, this is factory installed and should only be part of listing requirements. Is also not really a part of the premises wiring.

Plenty of non-premises wiring stuff in the NEC. Article 422 IV appliance construction requirements, Article 240 extension cord overcurrent protection, etc.

 

[Jraef]

Based on my experience with room mates years ago, it's because window AC units end up falling out of the window and hanging by the cord when some drunk idiot opens the window to yell to someone outside. This can happen multiple times in the AC unit's lifetime, which damages the cords...

 

[kwired]

The NEC gets adopted as a law, product standards are voluntary and need to follow the NEC.

NEC does not even require AC units to be listed.
If a product is listed it needs no further inspection 90.7

Does the cord not have conductors and do you not install it?

Definition of PREMISE

a proposition antecedently supposed or proved as a basis of argument or inference; specifically : either of the first two propositions of a syllogism from which the conclusion is drawn; something assumed or taken for granted : presupposition… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

There is nothing in 90.2(B) that says 'ends at the receptacle outlet'
90.7 says "factory installed internal wiring".
The NEC has a long history of regulating appliance cords, just look at range and dryer cords.

I have to disagree, at least in most circumstances where an appliance comes with a cord already attached to it and it is covered in any listing for that item.

The range and dryer cords are nothing more than one of the permitted methods of connecting those appliances, most the regulation by NEC with ranges and dryers involves whether or not you can use a three or four wire supply whether it be a cord or other method.

I can have a final inspection on a new home and not have range or dryer present at time of inspection. All inspector is going to do is make sure I have the 4 wire receptacles. Now when the appliance delivery guy comes and doesn't remove bonding jumper from neutral in the appliance----kind of not really my problem, and hopefully at very least it is a circuit fed from the service panel and not a feeder panel. If you happen to be in situation that requires GFCI protection which can be common with 2020 and 2023 NEC - it's going to trip the GFCI

 

[hbiss]

Based on my experience with room mates years ago, it's because window AC units end up falling out of the window and hanging by the cord when some drunk idiot opens the window to yell to someone outside. This can happen multiple times in the AC unit's lifetime, which damages the cords...

So the cord was damaged. So what? Be thankful that the cord kept the AC unit from hitting somebody...

-Hal

 

[jim dungar]

Plenty of non-premises wiring stuff in the NEC. Article 422 IV appliance construction requirements, Article 240 extension cord overcurrent protection, etc.

If these sections were not in the NEC, what would force the equipment standard writers to include them?

Would we need the federal government, via CPSC, to step in? What localities/agencies include product standards, like UL, in their 'laws'?

IMHO the NEC stops where the premises branch circuit ends at an outlet, be that a receptacle or equipment junction box.

 

[hbiss]

If these sections were not in the NEC, what would force the equipment standard writers to include them?

Would we need the federal government, via CPSC, to step in?

Yes, the CPSC exactly. But I'm willing to bet that they didn't think it was necessary and the NEC was easier for the inventor/manufacturer to persuade.

-Hal

 

[electrofelon]

If these sections were not in the NEC, what would force the equipment standard writers to include them?
.

Nothing. This is their area, just let them make the decision. The NEC needs to stay in its Lane

 

[jim dungar]

Yes, the CPSC exactly. But I'm willing to bet that they didn't think it was necessary and the NEC was easier for the inventor/manufacturer to persuade.

-Hal

Yeah.
One person can write a proposal to change the NEC. I am sure a single proposal to the CPSC wouldn't get past the first gatekeeper.

 

[suemarkp]

If these sections were not in the NEC, what would force the equipment standard writers to include them?

I thought most states now require electric equipment to be NRTL listed. I know WA does, but it is nearly impossible to enforce on residences. Much more common for commercial/industrial enforcement since they get state inspections like OSHA and the state equivalent. My last year of work was finding ways to certify non listed equipment we were using. Much was 40+ years old, non listed, but generally still in good shape.

The NRTLs test to standards which are typically UL standards, but not always as there are global ISO standards that are all slowly being harmonized so they have similar thresholds, requirements, etc. The standards organizations make money selling access to the standards. So the more standards they create the more business they can generate.

Don't know if it matters if NEC goes first or UL goes first. At some point they need to converge. The frustration is when the product standard doesn't work with newer equipment, like GFCIs on VFDs, or they require equipment that doesn't exist yet or isn't widely available.

 

[mtnelect]

After I submitted my two Public Inputs, which were "Resolved", I was reading committee comments. This last code cycle they were overwhelmed with PI, so the next code cycle, they planned to bar "Anonymous" Public Inputs.

 

[gene6]

I have to disagree, at least in most circumstances where an appliance comes with a cord already attached to it and it is covered in any listing for that item.

Saying a UL standard for AC units or ranges is legally binding is like saying UL can make a standard speed limit and everyone now has to drive 20 mph.

I can have a final inspection on a new home and not have range or dryer present at time of inspection. All inspector is going to do is make sure I have the 4 wire receptacles. Now when the appliance delivery guy comes and doesn't remove bonding jumper from neutral in the appliance----kind of not really my problem, and hopefully at very least it is a circuit fed from the service panel and not a feeder panel. If you happen to be in situation that requires GFCI protection which can be common with 2020 and 2023 NEC - it's going to trip the GFCI

100% could not agree with you more.
Its just like any law enforcement, many police officers only enforce a subsection of the law, even traffic law, if they don't enforce it it does not change what the law says.
My intent is to to discuss what the scope of the NEC is as a binding law once legally adopted, not what we experience with how its enforced. I am not sure what we disagree on? Product standards are just a bunch of text not enforceable laws.

 

[kwired]

I thought most states now require electric equipment to be NRTL listed. I know WA does, but it is nearly impossible to enforce on residences. Much more common for commercial/industrial enforcement since they get state inspections like OSHA and the state equivalent. My last year of work was finding ways to certify non listed equipment we were using. Much was 40+ years old, non listed, but generally still in good shape.

The NRTLs test to standards which are typically UL standards, but not always as there are global ISO standards that are all slowly being harmonized so they have similar thresholds, requirements, etc. The standards organizations make money selling access to the standards. So the more standards they create the more business they can generate.

Don't know if it matters if NEC goes first or UL goes first. At some point they need to converge. The frustration is when the product standard doesn't work with newer equipment, like GFCIs on VFDs, or they require equipment that doesn't exist yet or isn't widely available.

There still lots of things not listed as well as many things not required by NEC to be listed that we use all the time.

General purpose motors are not or at least not required to be listed. They may be used in listed equipment, but there is lots of things driven by GP motors that isn't listed either.