Appeal on ban for DIY permits for EV charger install or repair

B

brycenesbitt

Senior Member
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United States
Might not be popular position here, given the membership, but.... I'm just not a fan of this new rule
National Electric Code NEC 625.4 Qualified Persons.
Permanently installed electric vehicle power transfer system equipment shall be installed by qualified persons.
Click to expand...

It's the first exception to the ability to build and maintain a house, by a DIY'er, in the NEC. Gonna be some hate here, from preppers and skilled self builders.

On the ground:
Prohibiting DIY installs does not prevent DIY installs :
it just makes it harder (or impossible) to get a permit and a cross check by an inspector.

And I'm concerned this will have the opposite of the intended effect. Permanent EVSE are really a bit easier to install
correctly, compared to a NEMA 14-50R. The above could do exactly the opposite of what it seems to want on the surface.

I have signed up to make an appeal at the Las Vegas NFPA meeting.
Fair disclosure: Mike Holt disagrees with me, true.
 

Attachments

  • NFPA 2026 NITMAM 128-NFPA 70-2025 Nesbitt.pdf
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In 2023, equipment installations are described as “Portable”, “Fastened in place”, or “Fixed in place.” Only the “Fixed in place” require hard-wired connection. (625.44)

Is a definition being added for “Permanently installed?”
 
I don't see how it really changes anything???? if the AHJ won't know about it be it from EC not pulling permit or Home owner what the Difference. Like everything in a resi home is DYI and there suppose to get permit but they don't...
The AHJ can just say the DIY is not qualified-
Not a bid deal
Just more useless stuff in the code
 
What definition of Qualified Person are they using?
The one used by OSHA and NFPA70E would consider most licensed electricians as not qualified to install permanent EVSE because they have not had specific training in these products. However a DIY that goes to a "big box" EV install session would be qualified.
 
jim dungar said:
What definition of Qualified Person are they using?
The one used by OSHA and NFPA70E would consider most licensed electricians as not qualified to install permanent EVSE because they have not had specific training in these products. However a DIY that goes to a "big box" EV install session would be qualified.
Click to expand...
Do the box stores give you a Certificate ??? could just watch a You Tube video same difference
 
AC\DC said:
Do the box stores give you a Certificate ??? could just watch a You Tube video same difference
Click to expand...
A certificate or license is not a requirement to being Qualified per NFPA70E or OSHA.
These two sets of rules leave it up to the employer to decide what specific training and documentation is required so, yes a You Tube video may suffice.

My point is, the term Qualified Person is generally not dependent on having an "electrical license".
 
I get your point, AHJ still has the say,And a Roofer Doing a EV charger or homeowner That attended a class- is still going to have them Laughing and say get an electrician- Atlest 'most of the time'
 
I have observed that DIYers do pull permits, and in many cases outperform the professionals.

Many professionals stop learning after a year or three of experience. They then just keep doing things the same way they have done them for 20 years, regardless of whether it is right or wrong. DIYers, on the other hand, often research what they are doing and take time on the details, which leads to a better product.

DIYers do come up with the weirdest violations sometimes though... there are cases of true hackery that occur DIY or no.
 
It strikes me that the question is how to improve the quality of homes - in this case specifically with respect to EVSE. What is the problem that this potential rule - if followed - would reduce in severity or frequency? What makes EVSE inherently more risky than other elements of the residential electrical system? Is it the current/load and consideration of load center capacity? Is it workmanship of the install?

I'm not sure if the proposed rule solves a problem because I don't yet know what uncovered risk is being discussed.
 
If you are an electrical contractor, I think you are less likely to be called out to come look at work done by a competent DIYer than I am as an inspector. If a competent DIYer did work that looks professional, and you come in years later, you would likely assume it was done by a guy with a license. My guess is you will either never see the competent work that goes on in your area, and if you do you will have no way to know it wasn't done by a professional.

Now, the hack DIYers won't usually pull a permit, so I am only likely to find that stuff inspecting remodels or existing buildings. The electrical guys fixing it at that point do love to tell me all about how bad it was when I show up though...

Anyway, the issue of licensing is up to the local jurisdiction, and not one jurisdiction anywhere cares about what the NEC thinks about licensing requirements.
 
What was the substantiation for this code change? Did it point to any real world data that suggested that these installations were problematic?
 
NEC Inspector said:
Many professionals stop learning after a year or three of experience. They then just keep doing things the same way they have done them for 20 years, regardless of whether it is right or wrong.
Click to expand...
This is my experience also.
It seems many professionals don't go past just getting NEC and safety updates as their required CEUs.

Are manufacturer sponsored Lunch and Learns still a thing?
 
jim dungar said:
What definition of Qualified Person are they using?
The one used by OSHA and NFPA70E would consider most licensed electricians as not qualified to install permanent EVSE because they have not had specific training in these products. However a DIY that goes to a "big box" EV install session would be qualified.
Click to expand...
I run into things I'm not qualified for all the time. I'm usually better qualified after working with that first one though. I haven't done any of these EV chargers of any kind. Would like to think I have a step up on most DIY's when it comes to absorbing any special information about them which makes me more qualified out of the starting blocks than they likely would be.
 
AC\DC said:
Just more useless stuff in the code
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I agree, just more wasted ink. Everyone should be qualified for every single task in life. Someone isn't qualified to wipe their butt if they smear it all over the place, so in that case get someone qualified to wipe your butt for you. It's just ridiculous the things the CMPs waste time on, more ambiguous unenforceable meaningless nonsense.
 
NEC definition of qualified person sort of leaves it up to AHJ discretion when it comes to assessing the mentioned skills and knowledge.

The informational note that follows kind of suggests considering content in 70E.
 
An electrical license doesn't make someone qualified. I know a lot of electricians that are very qualified but have never taken the licensing test. And there are tons of licensed hacks. I'm all for someone DIY'ing their own stuff, but they should do it correctly. I'm not sure how to regulate that.
 
paullmullen said:
It strikes me that the question is how to improve the quality of homes - in this case specifically with respect to EVSE. What is the problem that this potential rule - if followed - would reduce in severity or frequency? What makes EVSE inherently more risky than other elements of the residential electrical system? Is it the current/load and consideration of load center capacity? Is it workmanship of the install?

I'm not sure if the proposed rule solves a problem because I don't yet know what uncovered risk is being discussed.
Click to expand...
The uncovered risk is there have been lots of reports of 50A receptacles for chargers melting down.
Now its a blame game.
Some say its bad DIY installs, others say its aluminum wire not terminated properly on this forum the consensus seems to be bad UL testing for the plastic.
So receptacle manufacturer points the finger at aluminum wire and drops AL/CU from its listing and is CU only, many EVSE are the same way, wire manufacturer points finger at UL and says they are not testing the plastic to 75C.
So the code people here about this and says souds rough we'll lets just make a qualified person installs these.
Then the certified installer that you now have to use from the car dealership who is a 'qualified person' (really he's the salesman's drunk cousin) will pull a 8/2 aluminum SE cable to the permanent EVSE wire a 14-50 with no neutral and your good to go.
 
The NEC uses the term “Qualified Person” in context with working space, where PPE may be needed, and with a lot of special equipment, or hazards.
 
The insurance Industry argued the case precedent in the Mississippi Supreme Court that alows local AHJ governments to be sued for issuing permits to DIY’s.

Since that precident in 2000, AHJ's started getting indemnity from Owner-Builder's before issuing permits.
 
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