Appeal on ban for DIY permits for EV charger install or repair

hillbilly1 said:
You’ve never installed an Eaton commercial charger. They did at one time, don’t know if they still do, but the contactor inside has a 120 volt coil. Eaton engineers said they (Eaton) did not make a contactor with a 208/240 coil. Only straight 208 or 240 volt coils. They may have changed it by now.
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I used to use Cutler Hammer definite purpose contactors almost exclusively several years ago. All the 240 volt versions I used then were rated 208-240, I still had one on the shelf that I just installed on something a few days ago. Is on my mind because of the reason why I used it. I fixed a problem of the existing contactor in that piece of equipment not wanting to pull in while a coincidental load was starting up causing significant voltage drop during that starting period. The original coil was an Allen Bradley contactor but only rated straight 240 volts. Contactor worked fine when you tried testing it , just wouldn't pull in when needed during that starting period because voltage was temporarily too low.

The application was a rotary phase converter, 30 HP (largest motor rating, idler motor was more like a 50 HP motor) The contactor was needed during starting only as it closed circuit for starting capacitors but that is also the time when voltage drop is the worst.

I'm sure Eaton likely has rebranded these contactors by now and may or may not have changed the design some.
 
electrofelon said:
I don't understand the NEC putting in "must be qualified" for some electrical stuff but not others.
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YES! but its one of the Subjected terms that should not be a rule its like Exposed to "Physical damage" I can't run SER exposed on side of building over here yet you can. Just because of some vague term. It's suppose to be a rule book- Rules are not suppose to be vague.

Supreme Court’s “void-for-vagueness” doctrine. In Kolender v. Lawson (1983) the Court held:

“A penal statute must define the criminal offense with sufficient definiteness that ordinary people can understand what conduct is prohibited
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AC\DC said:
Like everything in a resi home is DYI and there suppose to get permit but they don't...
Just more useless stuff in the code
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In my jurisdiction, a homeowner can walk in, get an express EV permit after signing
an "owner builder" agreement. And get a professional inspection.
That will end if 625.4 passes the CAM stage.
 
AC\DC said:
no they just say the watched a video or took a class and back to the same thing
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EVITP is a proctored exam.
There are ways of forcing people to take given exam. And if they get a permit, there's ways to check the work.
"Qualified person" is an insanely subjective test.

Home Depot now offers EVSE installs. If they're anything like their free installation of electric ranges, I don't want to be
anywhere near. Perhaps most DIY'ers are more qualified than what you're likely to get through HD.
 
paullmullen said:
I'm not sure if the proposed rule solves a problem because I don't yet know what uncovered risk is being discussed.
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Ah, there is a risk that's EVSE specific: Heat.

An EVSE will run for many more hours than most appliances, and at higher amperage than other continuous loads.
Just a little bit of excess V=IR adds up over the minutes and hours.

Thus small flaws in torque or wire size that could pass for a range, won't cut it for EVSE.
And there are cheap outlets out there, and an Amazon River full of fake-NRTL listed chargers.

---
That's the problem.
The proposed rule, in my view makes the problem worse. It was likely well meaning, but not a good way.

To me the solution is more of the DIY'ers getting a permit, not less.
Youtube does not really cut it.

Of course my own training course is fine, and all you need, eh?
Electric Vehicle Charging at Home - Inspecting Complex Dynamic Loads
 
I wonder if the dealerships are pushing this, I suspect the dealer certified EV installer is the one pulling 6/2 to a 14-50 receptacle and floating the neutral or tying it to the bare 'to be safe' so perhaps I'll have to start doing that to be 'qualified' LOL.
 
Well, anyone who wants to support or oppose this.
NFPA has acknowledged my notice of intent (in the first posting) and let me know there were others on the same topic.

Thus, the protest may become a Certified Amending Motion (CAM).
If so, the vote is June 19th in Las Vegas.
 
pipe_bender said:
I wonder if the dealerships are pushing this, I suspect the dealer certified EV installer is the one pulling 6/2 to a 14-50 receptacle and floating the neutral or tying it to the bare 'to be safe' so perhaps I'll have to start doing that to be 'qualified' LOL.
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This amendment states that it concerns “permanently installed” equipment. While I couldn’t find a definition in the NEC of “permanently installed”, to me, it means hard-wired. This thread kind of went on a tangent when receptacles got brought up.
 
brycenesbitt said:
Well, anyone who wants to support or oppose this.
NFPA has acknowledged my notice of intent (in the first posting) and let me know there were others on the same topic.

Thus, the protest may become a Certified Amending Motion (CAM).
If so, the vote is June 19th in Las Vegas.
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You can attend and participate in the floor debate, but you can only vote if you have been a member of the NFPA for at least 180 days prior to the vote.

Have they posted the actual schedule for the NFPA 70 vote as the conference website shows the 19th and 20th for the technical sessions?
 
NEC Inspector said:
I have observed that DIYers do pull permits, and in many cases outperform the professionals.

Many professionals stop learning after a year or three of experience. They then just keep doing things the same way they have done them for 20 years, regardless of whether it is right or wrong. DIYers, on the other hand, often research what they are doing and take time on the details, which leads to a better product.

DIYers do come up with the weirdest violations sometimes though... there are cases of true hackery that occur DIY or no.
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You do have considerable selection bias in your sample, as you are only seeing the work of the few DIYers who pull permits, who are likely a lot more concerned about compliance and doing good workmanship.

I have seen so many DIY hack jobs working service, and I doubt any of those pulled permits. Granted, my selection bias is the ones who did such a bad job it caused issues requiring troubleshooting, however I do come across these hack jobs when out on other tasks and just stumble upon them in the course of work.

Given that 90% of my customers decline to pull permits, you are getting a very select crowd. They may very well be better than the bottom feeder contractors that are "affordable" enough for your typical residence, no doubt, sometimes those guys are hard to differentiate from DIYers.
 
kb3ffh said:
Because of the amperage and attention to detail, this is not a diy project.
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Neither is a panel swap, but I believe homeowners can do those too.
There's a general "right" that homeowners should be able to do practically anything they want to their own homes. While it may hurt contractors, I don't see the need to undermine that right for the sake of car chargers. I say that as someone who gets 40-50% of his income from EV installs.

They're not as difficult as people make them seem. So long as the inspector checks wire/breaker sizing, the only other issue would be torque and wire stripping. Inspectors can check or retorque as they see fit. I'm sure DIY jobs get more scrutiny.
 
NoahsArc said:
There's a general "right" that homeowners should be able to do practically anything they want to their own homes.
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Nice idea, but what happens when the property is sold? Maybe all home sales should be required to be upgraded to newest code, or all unpermitted work be restored to the original condition?

The better rule is homeowners can do the physical work but it still needs to be per applicable codes and regulations including permits and inspections.
 
jim dungar said:
The better rule is homeowners can do the physical work but it still needs to be per applicable codes and regulations including permits and inspections.
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Yes, that's the rule.

I don't want codes telling me I can't replace my own plumbing fixtures or do my own renovations (with permits).
A lot of people will just do it unpermitted if you prevent them. It's not helping safety.
 
There were a lot of posts, and I only skimmed through, but this sounds more like an attempt to true up 625 to the other sections regarding interconnection. Car Chargers should never have been considered back feed devices without a MID. It would have simplified the install to simple equipment.

I wonder if this is also an attempt at Ford to create their own charger install team. Or Tesla, or ChargePoint. That way they don't need the local license (like a C10) to do the work. They can hire and fire their own teams instead of needing contractors. They are qualified by the company they work for and not by the state or local.

I think the NEC should leave who is or isn't capable of a safe install up to the local jurisdiction and focus on what makes it a safe install. Qualified persons work for sections that require someone for a supervised location. It isn't a one size fits all. If you include it in too many sections then you run the risk of needing a subdivision of qualifications on who is or isn't capable of a specific safe install which isn't really the code's place.
 
Elect117 said:
They can hire and fire their own teams instead of needing contractors. They are qualified by the company they work for and not by the state or local.
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Making employee tech's travel avoids local contractors, but not local building permits, which may delay completion for months.
 
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