Appliance Garage

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volt102

Senior Member
Location
New Hampshire
OK part II

When laying out the dinning room, there is a 22" wall space between fire place and the slider, wifey wants her Fondue Pot to be placed in front of this 22" wall. Can this receptacle come off the small appliance branch circuit that serves the dinning room?

Jim
New Hampshire
 

allenwayne

Senior Member
volt102 said:
OK part II

When laying out the dinning room, there is a 22" wall space between fire place and the slider, wifey wants her Fondue Pot to be placed in front of this 22" wall. Can this receptacle come off the small appliance branch circuit that serves the dinning room?

Jim
New Hampshire
There is no restriction on a min size a wall must have in a dining room.ALL receptacles in a dining room or a nook area must be 20 amp circuits.It is up to the EC if they are to be seperate from the 2 required S/A circuits or part of them.Going back to the appliance garage issue.An appliance garage doesn`t count for countertop recepalces as far as spacing goes.They don`t have to be gfci protected but I agree that it is easier to place them on the S/A gfci circuit since most times they are in the middle of a counter top or in a corner.Kitchen design plays a major part in the layout.
 

rcarroll

Senior Member
IMO, app. garage receps are required to be GFI protected. 210.52(5) talks about location. I does not take away the GFI requirement of 210.8. The garage is still on the kitchen counter. Think about it, if you have more than 1 appl. in the garage, you have to pull the 1 you want to use out onto the counter.
 

Jim W in Tampa

Senior Member
Location
Tampa Florida
rcarroll said:
IMO, app. garage receps are required to be GFI protected. 210.52(5) talks about location. I does not take away the GFI requirement of 210.8. The garage is still on the kitchen counter. Think about it, if you have more than 1 appl. in the garage, you have to pull the 1 you want to use out onto the counter.
Yes and it now is serving the counter top.Why would we not want to gfci protect it since it cost nothing extra ?
 

volt102

Senior Member
Location
New Hampshire
A 22" wall does not meet the definition of a wall space as per 210.52(A)(2) and therefore not one covered by 210.52(A)(1).

210.52(B)(1) Receptacle Outlets Served. In the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall and floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A), all countertop outlets covered by 210.52(C), and receptacle outlets for refrigeration equipment.

210.52(B)(2) The two or more small-appliance branch circuits specified in 210.52(B)(1) shall have no other outlets.

Jim
New Hampshire
 

Jim W in Tampa

Senior Member
Location
Tampa Florida
volt102 said:
A 22" wall does not meet the definition of a wall space as per 210.52(A)(2) and therefore not one covered by 210.52(A)(1).

210.52(B)(1) Receptacle Outlets Served. In the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall and floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A), all countertop outlets covered by 210.52(C), and receptacle outlets for refrigeration equipment.

210.52(B)(2) The two or more small-appliance branch circuits specified in 210.52(B)(1) shall have no other outlets.

Jim
New Hampshire
Its not required but not prohibited either
 

volt102

Senior Member
Location
New Hampshire
Then I must be misinterpreting the following:

210.52(B)(2) The two or more small-appliance branch circuits specified in 210.52(B)(1) shall have no other outlets.

I take this as if it is not specified, then it can not be on the two or more SBAC

Jim
New Hampshire
 

JohnJ0906

Senior Member
Location
Baltimore, MD
True, the letter of the nec would seem to prohibit it, but I certainly think the spirit of the rule is for all the 120v receps in the dining rm to be on the small appliance circuit. I certainly would fail inspection if I didn't. Am I supposed to pull a dedicated circuit for an outlet a HO wants to add on a short wall?
 

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
Well, there have been some good shouting matches - er - discussions about SABC's, appliance garages, GFI protection, and what the NEC does/doesn't/wants to/doesn't know how to - require.

Kitchen Circuits - unresolved
Countertop Outlets in kitchens - unresolved
Since you guys are so smart - resolved-ish.

My opinion (devoid of the 50 cents for coffee): If the NEC contained common sense in this area, it would require the receptacles inside the garage to be considered wall counter space, and 210.8 would slide into place, as would 210.52(B).

As it is, the countertop in front of the appliance garage is not wall counter space (despite the CMP believing the NEC says it is, but it doesn't). Since it is not wall counter space, then no receptacle is required. Since a receptacle installed in there is not permitted to be considered as serving counterspace, GFCI protection is not required.

But every AHJ I have encountered would require receptacles inside the appliance garage every 4', and GFCI protection. The walls of the garage would be considered a "space seperator". Why this is so hard for CMP-2 to put into words, is beyond me.
 

Dave58er

Senior Member
Location
Dearborn, MI
volt102 said:
A 22" wall does not meet the definition of a wall space as per 210.52(A)(2) and therefore not one covered by 210.52(A)(1).

210.52(B)(1) Receptacle Outlets Served. In the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall and floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A), all countertop outlets covered by 210.52(C), and receptacle outlets for refrigeration equipment.

210.52(B)(2) The two or more small-appliance branch circuits specified in 210.52(B)(1) shall have no other outlets.

Jim
New Hampshire
I agree with you. Thanks for pointing that out.

I'm wondering if anything over the minimum is allowed on those circuits then.
1 plug 2' from the door another 4' from the door. One of them is not required. Same thing on a countertop, 2 plugs 22" apart with one between them, the one in the middle wouldn't be required right?
What about a counter space less than 12"? An 8" counter plug wouldn't be a required plug and couldnt be on the SABC's?

Maybe I'll know more after I follow George's links.:)
 

volt102

Senior Member
Location
New Hampshire
Required and covered means two different things!

An extra outlet placed on the wall between the ones that are at 12' apart now means that no point on the wall is more then 3 feet from a receptacle. This scenario is covered by 210.52(A) since it reads that no point measured horizontally along the floor line in any wall space is more than 6 ft from a receptacle outlet. 3 feet is less the 6 feet.
Your scenario on the conutertop uses the same code compliant language. 11" and 5 1/2" are both less then 24".
That is why I pointed out a wall that is only 22" wide, one that is less the 2' and therefore not considered to be wall space, and one that is not covered by 210.52(A).

Your less the 12" contertop would be a valid question.


Jim
New Hampshire
 

1793

Senior Member
I have not read them yet...

I have not read them yet...

Without looking at the links provided by George, what are the dimensions needed for a countertop to be considered a counter top?

OK, I have just received the drawings for a Kitchen remodel, the counter is 24" wide with an Appliance Garage spanning 22" wide. The countertop is 24" deep, the Appliance Garage is about 14" deep.

We are looking at two GFCI receptacles in the Appliance Garage.

How would you handle this "new" countertop?
 

romeo

Senior Member
Appliance Garage

This point could be argued for ever w/o a valid answer. IMO there will be no appliance placed in the garage that would not normally be placed on the counter should there be no appliance garage.

With that in mind I would accept it on the small appliace circuit, but because it is concealed I would not accept it as one of the required receptales.
 

allenwayne

Senior Member
rcarroll said:
IMO, app. garage receps are required to be GFI protected. 210.52(5) talks about location. I does not take away the GFI requirement of 210.8. The garage is still on the kitchen counter. Think about it, if you have more than 1 appl. in the garage, you have to pull the 1 you want to use out onto the counter.

Read 210.52 5.It specifically mentions that an appliance garage is not one of the required outlets.So if it is not a required outlet then it doesn`t have to be gfci protected.
210 8 says that the receptacles must be gfci protected for counter top spaces.I contend that since the inside of an appliance garage is not a required receptacle and isn`t part of counter top spacing then the only thing it HAS to be is on a 20 amp circuit.Like I said earlier it is easier to gfci protect it but there is nothing that says the inside of an appliance garage serves the counter top and needs gfci protection.I`ve seen appliance garages that were independant of the countertop but actually sat on top of the counter top would these need gfci protection ????I have also seen multipule appliance garages stacked in a cabinet would these need gfci protection ???The appliances within are not fastened in place or not easily moved but they don`t serve the counter top either they are independant of it.

Another area where the wording in the NEC clouds the true meaning of the intent of the article
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
In spite of my generally electrically-liberal outlook, I have to disagree with those who say that only "required" receptacles must have (otherwise-required) GFCI protection. Would you say the same thing about a second receptacle within 3' of a bathroom sink?
 

Jim W in Tampa

Senior Member
Location
Tampa Florida
1793 said:
Without looking at the links provided by George, what are the dimensions needed for a countertop to be considered a counter top?

OK, I have just received the drawings for a Kitchen remodel, the counter is 24" wide with an Appliance Garage spanning 22" wide. The countertop is 24" deep, the Appliance Garage is about 14" deep.

We are looking at two GFCI receptacles in the Appliance Garage.

How would you handle this "new" countertop?
I now see a counter that is 24 inches by 10 inches,however it no longer has a wall.No idea how to fix .I would call the inspector and do what he will except.
 

rcarroll

Senior Member
Ok, here's how I was reading 210.52 5, the EC installs 2 receps on the counter 4' apart. The GC installs an app. garage. At final inspection, 1 recep is in the garage & the other is 30" away from side of the garage. The EC wants to count the recep in the garage & I say it doesn't count as the required recep for outlet spacing on counter tops. My bad? Now I'm going to split hairs. 210.8, GFI protection for outlets that serve counter top surfaces, not counter top spaces. If the app. garage is 2 sided only & the appliances are sitting on the counter top surface in the garage, is GFI protection required? You're not going to burn toast inside the garage, nor are you going to pour margarita mix into the mixer inside the garage. If I'm wrong in my thinking, I will gladly concede & join the ranks of those who have already eaten crow.
 

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
rcarroll said:
Now I'm going to split hairs. 210.8, GFI protection for outlets that serve counter top surfaces, not counter top spaces. ... You're not going to burn toast inside the garage, nor are you going to pour margarita mix into the mixer inside the garage.
I'd say the terms "spaces" and "surfaces" probably were not chosen to denote a difference in the principles, but I like that spin. I'd say that's a reasonable enforcement stategy of this woefully written section. :)

Larry Fine said:
In spite of my generally electrically-liberal outlook, I have to disagree with those who say that only "required" receptacles must have (otherwise-required) GFCI protection. Would you say the same thing about a second receptacle within 3' of a bathroom sink?
I think the reasoning is, .52(C)(5) states that receptacles not readily accessible by virtue of the presence of an appliance garage shall not be considered as the required countertop receptacles. This tends to indicate that the CMP believes that these receptacles will be used in the method Ron mentioned above - burning toast and blending inside the garage.

If this were indeed the case, then the receptacle inside the garage is not serving a counter space (or surface). 210.8 requires GFCI protection for those receptacles, and no others.

In the panel's words:
ROP leading to the 2005 NEC, Proposal 2-224 ( Log #3008 )
Code Making Panel 2 Statement:

Receptacle outlets within appliance garages may be provided as a convenience to the user to allow particular appliances to remain plugged in while they are stored. They may not be readily accessible for the use of other small appliances such as handheld mixers or electric carving knives that may not be stored in the garage. GFCI protection is required for all receptacles that serve countertop spaces.
ROP leading to the 2005 NEC, Proposal 2-220 (Log #879)
Code Making Panel 2 Statement:

The panel does not agree that appliance garages generally split the countertops into separate spaces. The face of the appliance garage does not typically extend to the outer edge of the countertop; a work surface is available directly in front of the appliance garage that is contiguous with the counters on either side of the appliance garage.
IMO, the "not readily accessible for mixers and carving knives" is ridiculous. Unfortunately, no proposals were submitted this cycle to change this code, so we are stuck with this for at least five more years. :(
 
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