Apprentice Supervision

[iwire]

I dont agree with that. Why do you need the extra regulation? the job ultimately has to get inspected anyway so why does it matter in how you get there? I know plenty of guys that can plug out a house or install lights on their own. Or even do some pipe work. It is my responsibility to make sure that the work , that is under my license to make sure its good and to code. Why does the state or city need to get involved in my management of my jobs?

Because your state requires an electrical license to do electrical work so why would an apprentice get a free pass?

 

[Minuteman]

I understand the concept. You can't hire a dozen "helpers" and send them out to work by themselves, without any supervision. I'm just saying their needs to be a balance.

 

[ctmike]

A jurisdiction (the whole county) in one of my areas recently passed a law effective Jan 1, 09. It states that apprentices cannot be left on the job by themselves. The contractors had 1 year to register their journeymen. Some did and some did not. This means as of Jan 1, 09 the non registered Jmen will need to take a test or be qualified as apprentices...which means they cannot be left alone (the test is offered 5 times a year). So much for some thinking they will beat the system. Fines and job stopages will occur and the County is serious about policing this - it equates to money in their pockets.

I will let you know how it pans out as the New Year takes it turn.

Pierre does that mean a journeyman isnt a licensed catagory in NY

 

[peter d]

Pierre does that mean a journeyman isnt a licensed catagory in NY

There is no statewide licensing in New York state. It is all done on the local level.

This basically means that some areas have very strict licensing regulations (NYC) while other areas have none, and everything in between.

 

[ctmike]

So what qualifys someone as a journeyman if there is no testing

 

[peter d]

So what qualifys someone as a journeyman if there is no testing

Nothing. Head down to HD, buy some 14/2 romex and a pair of linesmans, throw then in your trunk, and you are an electrician in many parts of NYS.

There may be a test or a fee to pay in many NYS towns and cities to be "licensed."

 

[tonyou812]

Because your state requires an electrical license to do electrical work so why would an apprentice get a free pass?

well I cant argue with that. Or when you put it that way

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

So what qualifys someone as a journeyman if there is no testing

This jurisdiction that I mentioned is starting testing in January of '09, for journeymen. This should be very interesting for the next year or so.

 

[peter d]

I am baffled, all three states I have a license in require a licensed person on the job with the apprentice.

I am surprised this is unusual.

I think the New England states may be the exception and not the rule when it comes to the journeyman/apprentice ratios.

 

[raider1]

Utah, has a journeyman to apprentice ratio of 2 apprentices to 1 journeyman for residential work and a 1 to 1 ratio for commercial work. The department of ocupational an professional licensing regulate licensure so as an inspector I have nothing to do with checking for licenses.

Here the state decided that if the apprentice can call the journeyman on a cell phone that that is considered supervision.

Chris

 

[Cow]

The replies are pretty interesting, I believe both Oregon and Washington are one-to-one ratios requiring direct supervision. It appears the direct supervision rules are skewed depending on which inspector you're talking too. I've never tried it, but if I left an apprentice on the job while I go get parts, I'd probably have a heck of time talking my way out of a fine if I got caught. Common sense tells me to always send the apprentice for parts instead of leaving him behind to work. If I go look at another job, he comes with.

 

[bradleyelectric]

In MD when dirt was new and I was in high school I went to school for 2 classes in the morning and than went to the supply house and went inside and they would hand me a box of supplies and directions and I'd jump in the van my employer left there and go trim out the house at the end of the directions. He would be roughing in another 1 with his other guy. This was before cell phones and pagers.

Now everyone is supposed to be licensed.

 

[celtic]

Because your state requires an electrical license to do electrical work so why would an apprentice get a free pass?

About 10 or so years ago, NJ tried this"thing" called a "Qualified Journeyman"...the State may have been leaning towards a ratio then.

In May of '04, something along the lines of ratios was again brought up:

13:31-3.4 Supervision of electrical work
(a) The qualifying licensee shall assume full responsibility for the inspection and supervision of all electrical work, other than electrical activities exempt pursuant to N.J.S.A. 45:5A-18, to be performed by the business permit holder in compliance with the Electrical Subcode of the Uniform Construction Code, set forth at N.J.A.C. 5:23-3.16 and N.J.A.C. 13:31- 1.4.

(b) The qualifying licensee shall:
1. Supervise the installation, erection, repair or alteration of electrical equipment for the generation, transmission or utilization of energy, other than electrical activities exempt pursuant to N.J.S.A. 45:5A-18, to ensure that such work is performed in compliance with N.J.A.C. 13:31-1.4 and with the provisions of the Electrical Subcode of the Uniform Construction Code, set forth at N.J.A.C. 5:23-3.16, in effect at the time that the work is performed.
2. Personally inspect the work of employees pursuant to (d) below;
3. Ensure that electrical workers are afforded the degree of personal on-site supervision commensurate with their level of competence and the complexity of the work to be performed pursuant to (d) below; and
4. Be present, on a regular and continuous basis, at the principal office of the business permit holder, where the business permit holder maintains a New Jersey office, or at work sites of electrical work performed in New Jersey, where the business permit holder does not maintain a New Jersey office.
(c) Every 10 employees who are performing electrical work at either one job site or who are performing electrical work at several jobs at different sites simultaneously shall be supervised, pursuant to (d) below, by a qualifying licensee or by a licensee or qualified journeyman electrician.
(d) A qualifying licensee, licensee or qualified journeyman electrician shall provide the following supervision:
1. If the employee performing the work has less than three and one half years experience working under the Uniform Construction Code set forth at N.J.A.C. 5:23-3.16, the qualifying licensee, licensee or qualified journeyman electrician shall ensure constant on-site supervision of the employee; or
2. If the employee performing the work has more than three and one half years experience working under the Uniform Construction Code set forth at N.J.A.C. 5:23-3.16, the qualifying licensee, licensee or qualified journeyman electrician shall provide the employee with a verbal or written work order specifying the type of work to be performed, and at the conclusion of the job, the employee shall confirm that the work order has been completed.
(e) A qualifying licensee who violates any provision of this section shall be deemed to have engaged in occupational misconduct within the meaning of N.J.S.A. 45:1-21(e) and shall be subject to the provisions of N.J.S.A. 45:1-21.

http://www.state.nj.us/lps/ca/adoption/elecado517.htm

It may be on the books ~ but there is no one to enforce the law.

The provisions/requirements for having the Qualified JW [QJW] card included like 8000 man hours of hands on, CEU classes, etc.
I am actually surprised the State of NJ has made NO ATTEMPT to enforce the QJW requirements - it's a cash calf for the State.
Trying to find information about NJ QJW is an exercise in futility and frustration.

Here is one such document from 2000:

The Assembly Consumer Affairs and Regulated Professions Committee reports favorably with committee amendments Assembly Bill No. 2054.
​

As amended, this bill establishes a statutory definition of a qualified journeyman electrician and authorizes the Board of Examiners of Electrical Contractors to issue certificates of registration for a period of three years to qualified journeymen electricians. The bill defines a "qualified journeyman electrician" as a person who: holds a current valid license to practice electrical contracting by the board and has applied to be registered as a qualified journeyman electrician; or has acquired 8,000 hours of practical experience working with tools in the installation, alteration or repair of wiring for electric light, heat or power and has successfully completed a minimum of 576 classroom hours of related instruction, which requirement of practical experience shall not include time spent in supervising, engineering, estimating and other managerial tasks; or has demonstrated to the satisfaction of the board that he has gathered the required experience through alternative means. Currently, the board, by regulation, issues a qualified journeyman electrician identification card on a one-time basis to an individual who is eligible to be so registered.
The bill also stipulates that as a condition for triennial registration renewal, each qualified journeyman electrician, other than a qualified journeyman electrician licensed to practice electrical contracting issued by the board, shall complete a 10-hour course of study relating to the most recent edition of the National Electrical Code. In addition, the bill provides that the board shall approve all programs of education for the 10-hour course of study and the instuctors for those courses. Waivers of these continuing education requirements may be granted by the board on an individual basis due to hardship, retirement of the certificate of registration or for other good cause.
Further, the bill mandates that the three-year renewal cycle for registration as a qualified journeyman electrician shall be the same as that for licensed electrical contractors.
The committee made technical amendments to the bill.

http://www.njleg.state.nj.us/2000/Bills/a2500/2054_s1.pdf


I actually have a "Qualified JW Card"...not that it means anything...other than I got taken by the State for the fee.

Anyone else from NJ have one of these?
Care to share the number/year obtained?

I'm so happy I got my EC credentials in '96 :grin:

 

[quogueelectric]

here you get to pay for 20 licences in a 50 mile radius and no statewide licencing or supervision. Nfpa inspectors are not allowed in certain towns. It is the wild wild west out here. One authority one person to answer to. you dont know how good you have it.

 

[petersonra]

It is up to each area.

Where I am I can not leave an apprentice on a job without a licensed guy and it's no more than one apprentice per licensed guy.

I think it is CT that requires in sight or earshot.

so if you go off to the john the apprentice has to take a nap while you are reading the newspaper?

 

[celtic]

so if you go off to the john the apprentice has to take a nap while you are reading the newspaper?

He gets a choice...turn the pages or hold the roll :grin:

 

[ptonsparky]

I try not to leave apprentices unattended unless they are ditch digging. I hired a Journeyman to work with an apprentice because we had to much to do and I could not be there all the time. Apprentice ran the job & Journeyman was just a burden.

 

[iwire]

so if you go off to the john the apprentice has to take a nap while you are reading the newspaper?

Per the law in my area he must be under my direct supervision.

The reality is apprentices do get left on their own but if you get caught doing so you just have to lay down and take your lumps.

Like Celtic and I am sure many here, I was running good sized jobs long before I had my license. Most times it went fine, when I got bagged my boss had to deal with the consequences.

 

[Bill Ruffner]

The following comment is directed toward housing:

If a contractor has an employee that is capable of doing the task at hand, why should anyone have the right to say otherwise? Why shouldn't he be allowed to make the decisions regarding who is qualified and who is not? After all, it's his money and reputation that's at stake.

Residential is not very complicated. The repetitive nature of residential allows an employee to learn quickly. We've developed many employees that after one year were as capable of roughing or trimming a house as any journeyman on the job.

On the other side of the equation, I've had the hall send me out Journeymen that did not have any residential experience. They were just not capable of doing the work.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that sometimes a business owner is in a better position to determine who is qualified. It's hard enough trying to run a profitable business without some bureaucratic institution handcuffing you.

 

[brian john]

I guess what I'm trying to say is that sometimes a business owner is in a better position to determine who is qualified. It's hard enough trying to run a profitable business without some bureaucratic institution handcuffing you.

Because the AHJ bosses want to make money or some other entity has a stake in limiting the ability of some qualified men from working.

Myself I was wiring apts to code with 6 months in the trade. Some can do it others can't and the government is in no position to make that determination.