Arc 210.8 arc -old man, food truck

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wyreman

wyreman

Senior Member
Location
SF CA USA
Occupation
electrical contractor
So let's bring the new food truck up to speed.
Manufacturer did not install any GFI or Arc Fault anything.
There are plenty of issues from the factory anyway... panel in a cabinet, obviously.

Seems like health inspector wants GFI on everything and he'll be happy.
...can you spell fridge nuisance trip anyone.

Do I need to install AFCI too
 
wyreman said:
So let's bring the new food truck up to speed.
Manufacturer did not install any GFI or Arc Fault anything.
There are plenty of issues from the factory anyway... panel in a cabinet, obviously.

Seems like health inspector wants GFI on everything and he'll be happy.
...can you spell fridge nuisance trip anyone.

Do I need to install AFCI too
Click to expand...

I don't think the NEC would even apply here.

It isn't a dwelling so 210.12 is out. The closest sec to it might be 551- but I cant see how a food truck is an RV- see art 100 for RV def. And per 90.2(B) a truck (automotive vehicle) isn't covered. I think there is something in 250 about vehicle mounted generators, but that is about it.

As for the GFCIs, the health department may or may not be able to demand pretty much anything, but there should be something spelling out the ahj rules for those trucks, so they can back up any requirements.
 
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user 100 said:
I don't think the NEC would even apply here.

It isn't a dwelling so 210.12 is out. The closest sec to it might be 551- but I cant see how a food truck is an RV- see art 100 for RV def. And per 90.2(B) a truck (automotive vehicle) isn't covered. I think there is something in 250 about vehicle mounted generators, but that is about it.

As for the GFCIs, the health department may or may not be able to demand pretty much anything, but there should be something spelling out the ahj rules for those trucks, so they can back up any requirements.
Click to expand...

I agree and also don't see what authority a health inspector has to require GFCI's, not saying they aren't a bad idea, but just don't need enforced by a health inspector. For one thing they are for people protection from electric shock - which has nothing to do with food safety, unless maybe they are worried a food handler may somehow contaminate the food should they be electrocuted:?
 
If the AHJ decides the health inspector wears many hats, including EI, then so be it. I would still be interested in what code would be cited. Something local?

Even if there is a separate code for food trucks like some kind of industry standard, has the state adopted that?
 
kwired said:
unless maybe they are worried a food handler may somehow contaminate the food should they be electrocuted:?
Click to expand...
After about 3 days, the body would start to be a real issue! Perhaps it just has to do with the public's safety where they are touching the vehicle. Aren't traveling fairs covered like that?
 
mivey said:
After about 3 days, the body would start to be a real issue! Perhaps it just has to do with the public's safety where they are touching the vehicle. Aren't traveling fairs covered like that?
Click to expand...
By a food/health inspector:?

I could see them having concerns of general safety and contacting the fire or electrical inspector to come and check into that - if they aren't already coming to inspect a traveling fair/carnival before approving them to operate.
 
Given the popularity of food trucks maybe they should be covered under the NEC but for now they're not.

90.2 Scope.
(B) Not Covered. This Code does not cover the following:
1) Installations in ships, watercraft other than floating buildings, railway rolling stock, aircraft, or automotive vehicles
other than mobile homes and recreational vehicles
Click to expand...
 
I have done 3 or 4 food trucks and they are not covered by the NEC....The only authority on the truck is the health department. I did one here in NC and the guy took it to Chicago. His dad told me that the inspector said it was the nicest job he had ever seen in a food truck. We piped everything, strapped it well and added gfci protection. Obviously, ground rod was not installed-LOL
We
did have a small panel in there also as there were a lot of cooking apparatuses.
 
I would assume you are powering these receptacles via a local generator...if so you should be covered even if the NEC doesn't apply directly to the food truck itself. Just FOOD for thought and again assuming you have a generator in the equation. (2017 NEC Mind You)

445.20 Ground-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection for Receptacles
on 15-kW or Smaller Portable Generators.

Receptacle outlets that are a part of a 15-kW or smaller portable generator
shall have listed ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection
(GFCI) for personnel integral to the generator or receptacle as
indicated in either (A) or (B):


(A) Unbonded (Floating Neutral) Generators. Unbonded
generators with both 125-volt and 125/250-volt receptacle
outlets shall have listed GFCI protection for personnel integral
to the generator or receptacle on all 125-volt, 15- and
20-ampere receptacle outlets.


Exception: GFCI protection shall not be required where the 125-volt
receptacle outlets(s) is interlocked such that it is not available for use
when any 125/250-volt receptacle(s) is in use.


(B) Bonded Neutral Generators. Bonded generators shall be
provided with GFCI protection on all 125-volt, 15- and
20-ampere receptacle outlets.
Informational Note: Refer to 590.6(A)(3) for GFCI requirements
for 15-kW or smaller portable generators used for temporary
electric power and lighting.


Exception to (A) and (B): If the generator was manufactured or remanufactured
prior to January 1, 2015, listed cord sets or devices incorporating
listed GFCI protection for personnel identified for portable use
shall be permitted.

AGAIN....no comments that Food trucks do not need to meet the NEC....Yeah we have established that. I am just an outside of the BOX thinker!
 
wyreman said:
Seems like health inspector wants GFI on everything and he'll be happy.
...can you spell fridge nuisance trip anyone.
Click to expand...

Regardless of the other posts, why would you think there would be more nuisance trips than in commercial kitchens?

GFCI's function very well in commercial kitchens and on construction sites which would be a much harsher environment than a food truck.

Roger
 
MasterTheNEC said:
I would assume you are powering these receptacles via a local generator...if so you should be covered even if the NEC doesn't apply directly to the food truck itself. Just FOOD for thought and again assuming you have a generator in the equation. (2017 NEC Mind You)

445.20 Ground-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection for Receptacles
on 15-kW or Smaller Portable Generators.

Receptacle outlets that are a part of a 15-kW or smaller portable generator
shall have listed ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection
(GFCI) for personnel integral to the generator or receptacle as
indicated in either (A) or (B):


(A) Unbonded (Floating Neutral) Generators. Unbonded
generators with both 125-volt and 125/250-volt receptacle
outlets shall have listed GFCI protection for personnel integral
to the generator or receptacle on all 125-volt, 15- and
20-ampere receptacle outlets.


Exception: GFCI protection shall not be required where the 125-volt
receptacle outlets(s) is interlocked such that it is not available for use
when any 125/250-volt receptacle(s) is in use.


(B) Bonded Neutral Generators. Bonded generators shall be
provided with GFCI protection on all 125-volt, 15- and
20-ampere receptacle outlets.
Informational Note: Refer to 590.6(A)(3) for GFCI requirements
for 15-kW or smaller portable generators used for temporary
electric power and lighting.


Exception to (A) and (B): If the generator was manufactured or remanufactured
prior to January 1, 2015, listed cord sets or devices incorporating
listed GFCI protection for personnel identified for portable use
shall be permitted.

AGAIN....no comments that Food trucks do not need to meet the NEC....Yeah we have established that. I am just an outside of the BOX thinker!
Click to expand...
If supplying a distribution panel in the truck, chances are the main power supply cord has either a 30 or 50 amp cord cap on it.
 
kwired said:
If supplying a distribution panel in the truck, chances are the main power supply cord has either a 30 or 50 amp cord cap on it.
Click to expand...
May be true....but to this point we have no idea. Most of the food trucks I had the pleasure of eating from had a smaller portable generator connected so they could be self sufficient.
 
MasterTheNEC said:
May be true....but to this point we have no idea. Most of the food trucks I had the pleasure of eating from had a smaller portable generator connected so they could be self sufficient.
Click to expand...
I guess it depends on what they have for load. Again if you are going to have a distribution panel, one 20 amp 120 volt circuit don't get you very far with this kind of thing. A 30 amp 120 volt circuit does get you a little further, though you probably want as much gas heating appliances as possible. A 50 amp supply cord, you maybe need a larger generator, but also can plug it in if you have a regular parking place with power, or even plug it in when it goes home at night to keep necessary loads running without needing to run the generator.
 
kwired said:
If supplying a distribution panel in the truck, chances are the main power supply cord has either a 30 or 50 amp cord cap on it.
Click to expand...

And if like most all other food trucks after a while an 80 amp connected load. :)

Jap>
 
I think it is pretty disingenuous to claim a food truck is covered by the NEC just because it includes a generator.

It also has electric ovens and burners. those are in the NEC too. so why wouldn't that make the truck covered by the NEC.

I think some people just want to shoehorn things into something where it does not belong because they want to justify some requirement they want to enforce but can't quite find it anywhere.
 
Having fixed a few food trucks in my time.... biggest thing is to be careful of bonding. I've seen lots of trucks that have all the neutrals and EGCs mixed in their panel. Not too bad if you're only on the truck's generator, but when you go to shore power, that's a problem.

Also, some operators will adapt a 30a 120v RV plug or a even an L14-30 down to a 5-15; if there's a panel in the truck it'll probably trip the supply's required GFCI immediately. (I've also heard of some fairground and municipalities going to 50a 2p GFCIs for truck feeds. Haven't seen it myself yet, but it'll be fun.)

I would generally wire it per NEC, even with GFCI outlets. If there is a generator, it's an SDS so put the SBJ in there. If there's a hard-wired generator, use a real 3p transfer switch as required. And train the owner on how to hook it up right (they may forget in a month, but you'll have done your job).
 
petersonra said:
I think it is pretty disingenuous to claim a food truck is covered by the NEC just because it includes a generator.
Click to expand...

I think it is pretty disingenuous to assume as well....I don't believe anyone made such a claim I don't think. My statement was to possibly provide a response to the health official in regards to the GFCI needs.....if it was powered by a generator and nothing more.

I will assume you are referring to me as I am the only one that mentioned anything about a generator, but that was for the GFCI aspect where applicable. read my post again and more importantly the first and last lines of the entire post.
 
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First thing he said was " don't even ask about the authority to require"

It is fed from a 125a 2p cb.
Has a local sourcep panel w [2] 50a bee sting outlets for them to plug into.
The food truck local source panel was inaccesible
how they parked
so insp wants working clearances

The [2] distrib panels are inside a cabinet.
Insp really didn't like that but... it was made in Tennessee!

Main thing he was shaking his head that it was going to cost the entrepreneur more money he hadn't budgeted.
His authority is basically to shut down without the sticker.

Food trucks should be required to be UL listed imo
 
wyreman said:
First thing he said was " don't even ask about the authority to require"
Click to expand...

That is ridiculous. At very least he should easily be able to cite you local or state statutes of where his authority comes from, whether he has authority over electrical installations is maybe more understandable that it may not be so obvious, but the statute that essentially creates his job should be a start.
 
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