Arc Fault Breaker problem

[iwire]

I happen to believe that there are most certainly such things as AFCI testers. I have read the posted articles that claim there are not and do not buy it.

So let me understand this.

1) UL (United Laboratories) the people who test and list all AFCI devices say there is no such thing as an AFCI tester on the market.

2) IAEI (International Association of Electrical Inspectors) agree there is no such thing as an AFCI tester on the market.

3) Square D who manufactures AFCI devices say there is no such thing as an AFCI tester on the market.

But you, one guy in the wilderness says differently? :roll:

Unless of course you believe that an arc signature cannot be duplicated electronically?

Of course it can be duplicated but that fact is each manufacturer is looking for different signatures so when Ideal (or any third party) makes an AFCI "Tester" they would need to know what each manufacturers device is looking for.

With todays modern electronics an arc can be accurately simulated - and it is highly desirable to do so from the standpoint of repeatability in testing.

Again of course, but you have to know what exactly your trying to simulate and each manufacturer keeps that info as a trade secret.

The manufacturers claim they can detect actual arc signatures. They do this with firmware algorithms. Why should we not be able to reverse that process to build a tester?

We could, if they would share those algorithms.

We should probably just take it on faith that they are the only ones who know how to properly test their products

Yes, we should, that is what UL expects and 110.3(B) requires.

I am still curious for someone to explain exactly what the test button inside of the AFCI does? Exactly how much does pushing that button actually test?

Don't know, don't care, it is irrelevant to my job.

 

[iwire]

I wonder, don't the same people use a tester or shall I call it a indicator on a circuit after they flip the CB OFF? They don't trust the switch, yet trust a TEST button to operate correctly??

Apples and oranges.

If UL, and the IAEI, and Square D all came out and said my Fluke 87 was not a reliable method of testing for the presence of voltage I would change my habits.

But the fact is only AFCI 'testers' are under this suspicion.

Even the directions with the Ideal tester note that they only check for the proper connection of the AFCI.

From Ideal

http://www.idealindustries.com/media/pdfs/products/guides/testing_afci_protected_circuits_guide.pdf

Proper Test Methodology when using the IDEAL AFCI Circuit Tester model 61-059 for Branch Circuits Protected by AFCIs:

1. At the panel, operate the test button on the AFCI breaker installed in the branch circuit.

a. If the AFCI breaker trips, reset the breaker to restore power.

b. If the AFCI breaker does not trip, verify proper installation of the breaker. If the installation is correct and the breaker still does not trip, replace the faulty breaker.

2. Then, check each outlet on the branch circuit for proper wiring configuration by using the LEDs on the 61-059 tester.

3. Go to the furthest outlet on the branch circuit from the panel and conduct an AFCI trip test with the tester.

a. If the breaker trips, then use the tester to check that each outlet on the branch circuit has been de-energized to confirm that the outlets are on the same AFCI branch circuit.

b. If the breaker doesn?t trip, then the branch circuit may have excessive line impedance (i.e. voltage drop) from undersized wiring, loose wire connections and/or faulty wiring devices. The SureTest? model 61-165 can be used to further identify the source of high impedance on the branch circuit

So if your taking the time to read the above, they are using the test button on the AFCI breaker to test the device.

The tester they sell only tests for proper connections between the breaker and the outlets.

 

[wptski]

Don't know, don't care. I'll let you worry about what the test button does or doesn't do.

What I do know is that if you are an inspector, don't come into my job, or any job, with your phantom AFCI "Tester" and think that you are going to pass or fail my installation based on the results or lack thereof from this "tester".

I'm not questioning if a AFCI tester works or not which you guys post links to. Those links state that a AFCI tester can't simulate all conditions and may fail to trip a AFCI, yet you believe that the AFCI TEST button does without even knowing how it tests! Your too easily convinced.

Unless UL, etc. states the the AFCI TEST button tests all conditions that it's designed to monitor, I sure wouldn't rely on it as a full functional test.

I'm not worried at all about it, just amazed at how easily you guys take some things for granted and other things not.

 

[iwire]

Unless UL, etc. states the the AFCI TEST button tests all conditions that it's designed to monitor,

That is just what UL is saying.

just amazed at how easily you guys take some things for granted and other things not.

I feel we are all being duped in the first place just by having to install AFCIs that have yet to live up to their claims.

Look at Ideal's own instructions and you will see they too count on the AFCIs own test button. All the ideal unit checks is proper connections between the AFCI device and Ideal's 'Tester'

 

[iwire]

To be clear, no inspector of any kind should fail a job only because their AFCI indicator does not trip the AFCI breaker.

If the AFCI breaker trips when the test button is pushed and the wiring is connected properly then they must pass the job.

 

[celtic]

Unless UL, etc. states the the AFCI TEST button tests all conditions that it's designed to monitor, I sure wouldn't rely on it as a full functional test.

Then what would you rely on?

 

[iwire]

Then what would you rely on?

Apparently the tester that is not a tester. :grin:

 

[wptski]

Apples and oranges.

If UL, and the IAEI, and Square D all came out and said my Fluke 87 was not a reliable method of testing for the presence of voltage I would change my habits.

I've read that because I have a Ideal SureTest 61-165 but I'm not questioning the AFCI tester/indicator's ability to test, I'm questioning the AFCI TEST button's ability to test! Does it include a full functional ability test?

UL, IAEI and Square D don't tell us much about a AFCI. Don't you think that Square D has a external method of testing a their AFCI?

 

[iwire]

Don't you think that Square D has a external method of testing a their AFCI?

I don't know, I don't care. If I had to guess I would say yes and it is likely some sort of lab test where they make real arcs.

But that is the manufacturers lab, out on the job I follow the instructions with the products I install as required by 110.3(B).

If you can show me any AFCI device that has instructions requiring the use of an external tester that would change my mind. :smile:

 

[celtic]

Don't you think that Square D has a external method of testing a their AFCI?

I imagine it's looks something like this:

Here is the mobile test center:

If you want Square D (or some other manufac.) to come and test your installs they probably would.........for a price

Until that option is exercised, what other option is available?

 

[wptski]

Then what would you rely on?

Nothing! The only place I've seen a AFCI was hanging on a peg at Home Depot.

 

[electricmanscott]

I'm not questioning if a AFCI tester works or not which you guys post links to. Those links state that a AFCI tester can't simulate all conditions and may fail to trip a AFCI, yet you believe that the AFCI TEST button does without even knowing how it tests! Your too easily convinced.
.

What you are missing is the fact the most of us don't really care what it does, and why would we?

Press the button, see the little handle move, reset it, and walk away.

 

[augie47]

celtic and iwire continue to ruin everything by bringing factual information to the table. As my daddy always told. "my mind is made up, don't confuse me with facts" :grin:

 

[wptski]

What you are missing is the fact the most of us don't really care what it does, and why would we?

Press the button, see the little handle move, reset it, and walk away.

Actually, I gather that and that's a odd attitude to have, I think. Your rules or NEC, UL, etc. followers and you do what they say is correct, no questions asked.

I wonder what will happen if/when AFCI's come to the UK, etc. where they test as opposed to be followers of the code? Their GFCI like RCD's are tested for trip time and trip current. They don't rely on a TEST button.

 

[iwire]

I gather that and that's a odd attitude to have, I think. Your rules or NEC, UL, etc. followers and you do what they say is correct, no questions asked.

Bill, I am licensed electrician in three states, all three use the NEC and I am obligated to follow it.

I don't get to ignore what I may not like and neither can the inspectors.

Celtic asked, now I do.

How would you test an AFCI?

Their GFCI like RCD's are tested for trip time and trip current. They don't rely on a TEST button.

You can buy a calibrated GFCI tester here as well, the difference is that what it is testing for is a clearly defined quantity. Anyone can make a tester to check for a certain amount of leakage current.

But AFCIs are different, each manufacturer is looking for an Arc fault in a different and guarded way. It is imposable to make a tester that works for all brands of AFCIs when you do not know exactly what they are looking for.

 

[walkerj]

Actually, I gather that and that's a odd attitude to have, I think. Your rules or NEC, UL, etc. followers and you do what they say is correct, no questions asked.

I wonder what will happen if/when AFCI's come to the UK, etc. where they test as opposed to be followers of the code? Their GFCI like RCD's are tested for trip time and trip current. They don't rely on a TEST button.

Well, this isn't the UK, is it?

Should we change our voltage system to be like them?

Should we start talking funny too?

They have their "regs" and we have ours.

They follow their rules and we follow ours, just different approaches.

The bottom line is the breaker manufacturers say that the button is the way to test, like it or not. Don't you think that if there were a way to test them that SquareD and the like would have their own AFCI tester selling for top dollar?

 

[ELA]

I am hearing a lot of "don't know and don't cares here".
I thought this was the Engineering section of the forum?

I was interested in trying to spur conversation at a technical level and appears that some here do not care to go there and that is fine.


I expressed my opinion. I am not saying that UL or anyone else is incorrect.


I understand that we all have our particular areas of interest. If I were installing AFCIs for a living I would only care that pushing the test button is all I have to do to prove the installation is good.

I also agree that no inspector should be allowed to fail an installation based on his own test/indicator equipment. At least not today. I am willing to bet that somewhere in the near future there will be a "commercial business world approved" external tester for AFCIs.


My interest is from an engineering perspective and just wanted to discuss
different aspects of the AFCI. My hopes were that information could be shared at a technical level so that we might all learn from each other more about AFCIs.

Some here are saying that they do not care what the test switch on an AFCI does. I respect that. I myself am very interested in knowing more about what it does. I hope others here might know something about that and share with us.


When it is said that different manufacturers have different algorithms used, I am sure that is true. That isn't that a potential problem though.
Safety devices should be "standardized".
Shouldn't the manufactures have to "standardize" on a set of signatures and conditions they have to detect. The manufacturers then of course can be free as to how they accomplish this but all devices should meet the same test specification.

When UL tests these devices do they simply press the test button? I hope not. I would like to think there are some standardized tests they use. I had read somewhere about using actual electrical arcs when only when a limited amount of testing is required.

In mass production testing and in the future for installation testing I think we will see arc fault "testers" more commonly available.
Perhaps the problem is getting manufacturers to agree on a standardized set of waveform signatures?

 

[iwire]

I thought this was the Engineering section of the forum?

It is, but look at the opening question.

Anyone have a problem with Murray Arc fault breakers not passing the inspectors test when using an Ideal plug in arc fault checker?

It has nothing to do with how the self test button works. It is about an inspector failing a job because of Ideal 'tester'.

I expressed my opinion. I am not saying that UL or anyone else is incorrect.

It sure sounded like that.

I happen to believe that there are most certainly such things as AFCI testers. I have read the posted articles that claim there are not and do not buy it.

Safety devices should be "standardized".
Shouldn't the manufactures have to "standardize" on a set of signatures and conditions they have to detect.

That might be good, but it is not how I understand the current situation to be.

When UL tests these devices do they simply press the test button? I hope not. I would like to think there are some standardized tests they use.

I imagine UL has some great tests, I also guess few if any would be suitable for routine in place non-destructive testing.

Perhaps the problem is getting manufacturers to agree on a standardized set of waveform signatures?

I think they have every right to guard their own research.

Maybe you should start a new thread in this forum about how the Test function works, I imagine it is different for each manufacturer. :smile:

 

[wptski]

Well, this isn't the UK, is it?

Should we change our voltage system to be like them?

Should we start talking funny too?

They have their "regs" and we have ours.

They follow their rules and we follow ours, just different approaches.

The bottom line is the breaker manufacturers say that the button is the way to test, like it or not. Don't you think that if there were a way to test them that SquareD and the like would have their own AFCI tester selling for top dollar?

C'mon! I only mentioned this to compare to an area where they don't rely on TEST button to verify operation.

 

[gojoeba]

Im glad I posted here. You folks gave me lots of ammo for my inspector. I was quite surprised by the volume of responses here. Thank you all