ARC FAULT Breakers for Service Upgrade?

[doc12]

Ok, I do like the idea of using Arc Faults. But what I don't like is the cost.
I work primarily in ma.
Do we have to use Arc faults on a service change (other that where gfci is required)?
The average house has anywhere from 10 - 30 circuits. On an old house where the wiring does the kitchen, living room etc.. that would mean the a lot of Arc fault breakers.

At $35 a pop, that's going to hurt our business. What about an ARC Fault Main Breaker?

Doc12

 

[mdshunk]

I hope you're not required to do that. There can be some problems associated with arc faulting old work. Namely, the multiwire branch circuits and the possible unavailability of 2-pole AFCI's in the brand that you're changing the panel to. Plus, when you arc fault any old circuit, this can lead to a lot of associated troubleshooting, because at least some of them will trip. In an old home, they possibly also picked up a neutral "where ever", which will trip it.

If you have to AFCI an old house, just be prepared to block off some time in your schedule for the next couple of days if need be.

 

[stickboy1375]

Ok, I do like the idea of using Arc Faults. But what I don't like is the cost.

Its okay, your not the one actually paying for them...

I work primarily in ma.
Do we have to use Arc faults on a service change (other that where gfci is required)?
The average house has anywhere from 10 - 30 circuits. On an old house where the wiring does the kitchen, living room etc.. that would mean the a lot of Arc fault breakers.

I cant see why you would need to...

At $35 a pop, that's going to hurt our business.

Doc12

THis is false, it is not going to hurt our business, you should be TRYING to upsell these items...

 

[doc12]

I don't mind selling customers on these. I do like them.
Not everyone has an additional $350 bucks for a service change.
Times are tough in Ma for jobs. I am seeing more homeowners very carefully budgeting their money.

Now, could someone tell me where in the codebook it says that we do NOT have to use them on a service upgrade???

 

[iwire]

Now, could someone tell me where in the codebook it says that we do NOT have to use them on a service upgrade???

There is no such rule.

There is also no such rule that says we must use them at a service change.

When you do a service change in a old home do you bring th home up to the current code?

 

[mdshunk]

When you do a service change in a old home do you bring th home up to the current code?

No, certainly not, and I agree with the implied sentiment of the question. Think about this... when we do modifications and repairs to old work (in general), we only bring up to present code the things we actually touched. Why shouldn't we be required to use AFCI breakers instead of regular breakers? After all, the circuits need to be (or soon will need to be) AFCI'd. I know in some of the New England states you get a special pass that lets you put a violation back exactly the way it was before as long as you don't enhance the nature of the violation in any way. Most of us don't have such a rule, and in my opinion, if we're putting in new breakers, maybe they should be AFCI's? After all, if we change out a bathroom or outdoor duplex receptacle, we have to put a GFCI receptacle in. I see no difference here on this AFCI matter for service upgrades when I stop to think about it.

 

[stickboy1375]

No, certainly not, and I agree with the implied sentiment of the question. Think about this... when we do modifications and repairs to old work (in general), we only bring up to present code the things we actually touched. Why shouldn't we be required to use AFCI breakers instead of regular breakers? After all, the circuits need to be (or soon will need to be) AFCI'd. I know in some of the New England states you get a special pass that lets you put a violation back exactly the way it was before as long as you don't enhance the nature of the violation in any way. Most of us don't have such a rule, and in my opinion, if we're putting in new breakers, maybe they should be AFCI's? After all, if we change out a bathroom or outdoor duplex receptacle, we have to put a GFCI receptacle in. I see no difference here on this AFCI matter for service upgrades when I stop to think about it.

I have to disagree, and only because your not changing the circuit....only replacing the OCP...

 

[iwire]

Marc I agree, I think I could successfully argue either side of this AFCI question.

What you mentioned about the difficulties of using AFCIs on old circuits is very true.

OTOH they are new breakers and old wiring could probably benefit the most from working AFCIs.

Tough call ..... but OTOOH (on the other other hand ) I still have yet to buy or install an AFCI so it really does not effect me. :grin:

 

[mdshunk]

I have to disagree, and only because your not changing the circuit....only replacing the OCP...

Right, and the OCP is what's required for the arc fault protection. Perhaps you feel that since AFCI protection is also permitted by a device within a certain distance of the panel, that gives us a bye on needing to put the AFCI in the panel? I can buy that line of thinking.

 

[iwire]

I have to disagree, and only because your not changing the circuit....only replacing the OCP...

So if an existing 14 AWG circuit is protected by a 20 amp OCPD the new breaker you put in can also be a 20 amp?


I am just replacing the OCP. :grin:

 

[mdshunk]

... I still have yet to buy or install an AFCI so it really does not effect me. :grin:

No kidding? Hadn't heard that from you yet.

 

[iwire]

No kidding? Hadn't heard that from you yet.

Did you also know that the handbook is not code? :grin:

 

[mdshunk]

Did you also know that the handbook is not code? :grin:

Now, slow down. I'm trying to write down all this new stuff, and you keep spitting them out.

The.... handbook... is.... durnit! pencil point broke.

 

[stickboy1375]

So if an existing 14 AWG circuit is protected by a 20 amp OCPD the new breaker you put in can also be a 20 amp?


I am just replacing the OCP. :grin:

Bit of a stretch? Depending on the panel change out, who says i'm going to even install NEW breakers?

 

[doc12]

Ok Bob,

Someone calls you to bid on a service change. Do you:

A) Install standard breakers
b) Install Arc Faults ( this includes a large increase in your bid)
c) Call the inspector first
d) Install regular breakers and fight with the inspector if he says something. Thus you may be eating a $300 plus expense here.

My point here is is that there should be something documented out there thets says we Don''t have to on a service change. If not, I assume the worse.

 

[mdshunk]

Depending on the panel change out, who says i'm going to even install NEW breakers?

I see what you mean. I often reuse the old breakers if the brand is staying the same. If that's the case, then I don't think you'd need to AFCI those circuits if I was staying true to my logic.

 

[iwire]

The.... handbook... is.... durnit! pencil point broke.

LMAO, :grin:

 

[iwire]

Bit of a stretch? Depending on the panel change out, who says i'm going to even install NEW breakers?

Assume your changing the breakers....

What is the stretch?

 

[iwire]

Ok Bob,

Someone calls you to bid on a service change. Do you:

A) Install standard breakers
b) Install Arc Faults ( this includes a large increase in your bid)
c) Call the inspector first
d) Install regular breakers and fight with the inspector if he says something. Thus you may be eating a $300 plus expense here.

My point here is is that there should be something documented out there thets says we Don''t have to on a service change. If not, I assume the worse.

I would probably try "C" but I agree, it would be better if written down.

I doubt you will ever see it spelled out in the NEC but I am pretty sure that some areas do have local rules that spell that out.

 

[doc12]

hello,

Did you ever work on a house with FUSES ? Now what do we do here? Hmm...