ARC FAULT Breakers for Service Upgrade?

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doc12 said:
hello,

Did you ever work on a house with FUSES ? Now what do we do here? Hmm...
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That's what I'm talking about. I'd say at least 50% of the service upgrades I do are from fuses, and the more I think about it, the more I don't see a choice but to AFCI certain circuits. I already know that's not an enforced requirement in my area, so it will remain an upsell for me. This is just interesting stuff to talk about at the moment.
 
Most codes are permissive documents, including local amendments/codes. If you do not see it in writing, then it is not required.

I believe that I read where there is an area requiring the replacement to AFCIs during service upgrades, maybe it was Vermont??? Someone in Vermont will let us know.
 
Pierre C Belarge said:
Most codes are permissive documents, including local amendments/codes. If you do not see it in writing, then it is not required.
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We are required to AFCI the bedroom stuff. There doesn't seem to be an exception for the fact that the wiring may have been originally installed 50 years ago. We can't replace the service equipment to 50 year ago codes, so why should we be permitted to not AFCI the branch circuits, as is also the current requirement?
 
I agree I think AFCI is worth doing and a good up sell.

I just hate the problems that will come with changing a service on an older house. Not even counting the MWBC's. I have run across three way's that use a nuetral from another circuit. I'm sure there are other problems that will arise.
 
mdshunk said:
We are required to AFCI the bedroom stuff. There doesn't seem to be an exception for the fact that the wiring may have been originally installed 50 years ago. We can't replace the service equipment to 50 year ago codes, so why should we be permitted to not AFCI the branch circuits, as is also the current requirement?
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This line of reasoning is going to "go down in flames" when we're state joins us in Ohio and goes on the '08NEC. . We've got a combo requirement for '08 and no manufactures are making combo multipole AFCIs nor are they planning on developing any. . The only way you can combo AFCI 2 existing circuits that share a neutral is to rewire the homeruns.

That sounds like a mandate that reaches beyond the scope of work. . You'll need state law to back you up if you want to enforce that.

David
 
dnem said:
That sounds like a mandate that reaches beyond the scope of work.
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Yeah, but who develops the scope of work? The contractor and the homeowner do, in the case of a service upgrade. It's nobody's fault, other than their own, if this isn't included in the scope of work.

I'm sorry, I just don't see any relief, barring local language to the contrary, that would preclude the use of AFCI's for a service upgrads.
 
You are NOT required to install AFCI protection for outlets that now require such protection on a service change.

Just as you are NOT required to install GCI protection for outlets that now require such on a service chnage.
 
electricmanscott said:
You are NOT required to install AFCI protection for outlets that now require such protection on a service change.

Just as you are NOT required to install GCI protection for outlets that now require such on a service chnage.
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I agree with you but I didn't post what you did because I didn't have a code article and section ready nor did I have a fully developed argument.

You'll need one or the other with your post.
 
electricmanscott said:
You are NOT required to install AFCI protection for outlets that now require such protection on a service change.
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Okay, prove it! I'm not required to either, but I feel it is because the requirements are being overlooked.

Are you telling me that if you change out a broken duplex in a bathroom, you don't feel that to comply with the NEC you need to put a GFCI back in its place? Same deal here with the service upgrade.
 
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afci

afci

The arc fault breakers are going to suck. Now the combo breaker is going to be more sensitive, too. If the code doesn't specifically say "Not required on existing home circuits when changing a panel" Belive me their are lots of inspectors who are going to try to make you use them in a change out. Imagine all the wire nuts on those short neutral wires,
buckofdurham
 
buckofdurham said:
Imagine all the wire nuts on those short neutral wires,
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That's no big deal. It's pretty normal for me to have a wirenut on every single conductor coming into the panel on a changeout.
 
mdshunk said:
Okay, prove it! I'm not required to either, but I feel it is because the requirements are being overlooked.

Are you telling me that if you change out a broken duplex in a bathroom, you don't feel that to comply with the NEC you need to put a GFCI back in its place? Same deal here with the service upgrade.
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IMO you do not have to install AFCI's on a service upgrade. You also do not have to install GFCI's on a service upgrade.

This is also the opinion of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. That's all that matters to me.

You guys can beat this horse all you want. I'm not playing today. This has already gone into nonsense territory. (see post 32)
 
afci

afci

Not real attractive. Yet all those little twisted white wires coming off the breakers is not going to be easy to make neat either.

Heard about the garage door openers have to be gfci in 08
 
electricmanscott said:
This is also the opinion of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. That's all that matters to me.
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And, since you operate in Mass, if you have some official position paper on that, this is all that should matter.

I am very much interested in your opinion on this:

If, in the interest of code compliance, you would put a GFCI receptacle in the place of a broken duplex receptacle that you're changing in a bathroom...

why then...

is that any different than putting an AFCI breaker in place of the old overcurrent protection during a service change?
 
mdshunk said:
If, in the interest of code compliance, you would put a GFCI receptacle in the place of a broken duplex receptacle that you're changing in a bathroom...

why then...

is that any different than putting an AFCI breaker in place of the old overcurrent protection during a service change?
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The bathroom plug itself is the end product and its replacement brings the plug into the scope of work. . Replacement must be GFCI. . Plus 406.3(D)(2) makes it clear. . Without 406.3(D)(2) some people would argue with you about the GFCI replacement. . I would see it the same way as you do because of the scope of work argument, but not everybody would agree with that conclusion.

The AFCI is just one piece of a larger thing called a circuit which is existing and possibly not compatible with the combo AFCI that will not tolerate shared neutrals.

If I run a new circuit to an existing subpanel, if the existing subpanel doesn't have proper seperate of neutrals and equipment grounds I would need to either fix the subpanel grounding or find a different power source because the existing panel supplies the new load.

But this thread is opposite, a new panel supplying an existing load. . The existing load doesn't require GFCI protection until it is changed, upgraded, or replaced. . Until that time it remains out of the current scope of work and generates no demand for AFCI. . Just as a brand new kitchen circuit doesn't trigger or require AFCI, existing circuits [pre '02 code] of any kind also don't trigger or require AFCI.

It's not an "airtight" argument, but I think it's the best call.

David
 
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