arc fault circuits

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Riograndeelectric

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Lakewood Colorado
the code requires any oultet in a bedroom be on an arc fault cicuit. what do you do when adding a new light or outlet in a bedroom that is wired before 2002 and was not required to be AFCI protected. Would you go and change out breaker on exsitng circuit so it was AFCI protected or would you go ahed and tap off existing circuit add new light or recp with no AFCI protection
 
If its a new outlet it has to meet the latest requirements adopted in your town. That may be NEC2002 or NEC2005. Take a look at 210.12.
 
In my area, the new outlet in the existing bed (with existing wiring) must have AFCI protection. Depending upon the scope of work, the least difficult solution to adding a new outlet in an existing bed may be to run all the way back to the panel and add a new AFCI. . .or, it may be changing out the old breaker for the branch circuit that you extend off of to supply the new outlet.

I'm personally leary of putting an AFCI breaker on existing wiring that I didn't install. . .wiring that I can't vouch for. I don't want to have call backs for the deficiencies in someones else's work.
 
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I cannot for the life of me see how inspectors and others are misinterpreting this.

The code is that a branch circuit supplying outsles be protected. Not the outlets themselves. If you add a branch circuit it must be AFCI.
If you add an outlet to an existing circuit you do NOT need AFCI.
 
speedypetey said:
I cannot for the life of me see how inspectors and others are misinterpreting this.

The code is that a branch circuit supplying outsles be protected. Not the outlets themselves. If you add a branch circuit it must be AFCI.
If you add an outlet to an existing circuit you do NOT need AFCI.
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You may be right, but can you explain to me how you install a working outlet in a bedroom without installing branch circuit wiring to supply it? ;)

You add 6" or 66' of branch circuit wiring to a bedroom and IMO it must comply with the latest adopted code.
 
speedypetey said:
If you add an outlet to an existing circuit you do NOT need AFCI.
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Is this the way the AHJ enforces it in your neck of the woods?

If so, I'll bet that it is a local amendment.
 
"go and change out breaker on exsitng circuit so it was AFCI protected "

And remember to get the permit!, for the added outlet.

"You add 6" or 66' of branch circuit wiring to a bedroom and IMO it must comply with the latest adopted code."

Has been that way here, in every city and town as far back as i can remember.
 
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Ahh the common sense question again.

So some of you are saying that if a room had a switched outlet and someone decided to add a ceiling fan using the same switch, you would require it to be AFCI protected?

If you are adding an outlet by tapping off of an existing one in a bedroom I would not require it to be arc-fault.

If you are adding a whole new bedroom and you are running a new branch circuit from an old bull dog panel I would not require it then either.

Get what you can get and sometimes you have to give too.
 
cowboyjwc said:
Ahh the common sense question again.

So some of you are saying that if a room had a switched outlet and someone decided to add a ceiling fan using the same switch, you would require it to be AFCI protected?

If you are adding an outlet by tapping off of an existing one in a bedroom I would not require it to be arc-fault.

If you are adding a whole new bedroom and you are running a new branch circuit from an old bull dog panel I would not require it then either.

Get what you can get and sometimes you have to give too.
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Can you come here and be our inspector???
 
cowboyjwc said:
Ahh the common sense question again.

So some of you are saying that if a room had a switched outlet and someone decided to add a ceiling fan using the same switch, you would require it to be AFCI protected?

If you are adding an outlet by tapping off of an existing one in a bedroom I would not require it to be arc-fault.

If you are adding a whole new bedroom and you are running a new branch circuit from an old bull dog panel I would not require it then either.

Get what you can get and sometimes you have to give too.
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VOTE FOR COWBOY
Inspector of the YEAR!!
​
 
Click here for a related thread. The new outlet should technically be on an AFCI by code.

Rio, I'd say install the AFCI breaker and bill it. End of story. The linked thread shows how bad it can get, I doubt it's that bad in Denver. If it's a huge hassle I wouldn't shed a tear omitting the AFCI.

I'd only feel guilty for not trying, IMO. :)
 
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For all of you purists out there (and I don't think you are wrong), try this one. I'm adding a recept. in an existing bedroom and any # or all of the following conditions are present; the house is on a slab with no attic (common out here), Zinsco panel on opposite side of house, multiwire branch circuit feeding existing bedroom circuit. What will the HO do? Hire me to pull the permit and do the install for about $1500.00, or hire a handyman to add the outlet for $50.00 (out here a handyman does not need to be licensed to do work under $500.00 or even need to be a legal resident) ? Call me an outlaw, ban me from the forum and take away my Kliens; but I'll do the job w/o the permit if it means the handyman doesn't get another chance to screw it up.

Bob on the left coast.
 
bkludecke said:
Call me an outlaw, ban me from the forum and take away my Kliens;
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For telling the truth? No such a thing. It's more difficult to state your opinion when it flies in the face of purism. I applaud you for the honesty.

A forum is an open discussion. This is a difficult topic morally. You've presented your case well.

Did you follow the link in my last post?
 
I think that this boils down to the difference between what is practical and what follows the letter of the law.

I fully realize that AFCI protection is required on ALL new 120 volt, 15-20 amp outlets. No problem, That's the law.

However, it is not always practical. Sometimes there is a problem. Maybe a new outlet on an old wire, or the aforementioned multiwire branch circuit, or Zinsco panel.

If we install a new homerun, or extend an old circuit, in a home with a panel that has listed AFCI breakers available, then we install AFCI. Other wise we don't - cause we can't. I can't speak on what would happen if it was a multiwire circuit, but I imagine the inspectors would understand, or we would run a new circuit. It's that simple.
 
Bob K,

You paint a gruesome picture, Zinsco, slab, opposite ends, etc., for how difficult it would be to put in ONE AFCI.

Just wait till the 2008 NEC with AFCI on ALL 15 & 20 A 125 V branch circuits. I'll bet that a service change out will require AFCIs on the appropriate reconnected circuits.

The amount of time we're going to have to give to tracing down all the bad wiring others did before us will cause your Zinsco-on-a-slab to blanch and run away out of sight.
 
al hildenbrand said:
Just wait till the 2008 NEC with AFCI on ALL 15 & 20 A 125 V branch circuits. I'll bet that a service change out will require AFCIs on the appropriate reconnected circuits.
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Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't it still speculation on the 2008 NEC.... AND ... Isnt it GFCI on all circuits?
Still the same panel issues If you are a speculator & I'm not. I'll believe it when I see it.
 
George, I went back and read thru the old threads Thanks. It seems as this has been hashed over quite a bit in the past (I'm fairly new to the forum). I also think as challenges are presented it is going to require some common sense, flexibility and give & take to resolve some of the circumstances that we run across. Most of the inspectors around here are pretty reasonable so life is good !

Bob on the left coast.
 
I would like to thank everyone for there input on this. I try to use common sense and go by the code even though I may not agree with the code.
I know some other harry come lately EC will do this job andwith out install AFCI.

I feel it is a liability issue with me being liable should the house burn down or something happen and I did not install to code.

I am sure a lawyer could make a good case against me. I have a house that has a MWBC house was built in 1997 panel is Cutler Hammer and they do make a 2 pole AFCI breaker. problem is you have have to go thru both circuits to insure no ground to Neutral connections and that there are no loose connections. I have had many a service call to repair loose connections on splices or lighting fixtures.
once again THANK YOU TO EVERY ONE.
 
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