Arc fault nightmare

[peter d]

I think you are confusing 'morally' with 'legally'.

Not my intent to confuse them, I believe it's legally binding to install them. But does that require us to be liars and part of the fraud that is the AFCI? That is where the morality comes into play.

 

[K8MHZ]

Not my intent to confuse them, I believe it's legally binding to install them. But does that require us to be liars and part of the fraud that is the AFCI? That is where the morality comes into play.

I am very up front about the reputation of AFCI's. So is our state. As of last month, they aren't required in Michigan.

 

[peter d]

I am very up front about the reputation of AFCI's. So is our state. As of last month, they aren't required in Michigan.

That is excellent news. :thumbsup:

 

[jumper]

I am very up front about the reputation of AFCI's. So is our state. As of last month, they aren't required in Michigan.

None at all? Bedrooms?

 

[K8MHZ]

Here are the new rules for Michigan.

https://www.certifiedtraininginstit...lding-code-changes-effective-february-8-2016/

Which includes:

[h=2]Electrical Code Arc-Breakers[/h]No longer required for new residential construction builds

 

[K8MHZ]

None at all? Bedrooms?

Nope.

You can install them if you want, but the code no longer requires it.

There is a battle about this in congress. There is a bill, not passed, just written, that would put them back in the code for Michigan. If the bill is passed, it would become effective as soon as ratified, not when the next code comes out.

It's going to be interesting. Right now the bill is being subject to technical review.

 

[K8MHZ]

Here is IAEI complaining about the change:

http://iaei-michigan.org/2015-mrc/

Here is what they say:

SAVE AFCI’s – Save Michigan Lives​

Can we just sit back and let uninformed people remove the Changes in Circuit Breaker technology that can prevent electrical fires. AFCI’s can prevent millions of dollars in property damage annually, prevent over a thousand injuries annually, and save hundreds of lives annually by having the proven technology of an Arc-Fault Circuit-Interrupter.
We need to Act!!! Contact your legislative representatives, the Governors office and of course attend the public Hearing on May 28th and express your concern."

And in the comment section, the one and only comment included a link to a paper that contained this:



Manufacturer X provides a simple definition of a series
arcing event [7]:


“A series arc is an arcing incident across a break in a
conductor. A common example is a cut across one of the
two wires in a lamp cord, with a dangerous arc forming in
the gap. Combination AFCI circuit breakers detect the
arcing condition and turn off the circuit, thus providing the
enhanced protection.”


The author created the described condition in his shop, and
tested all commercial Combination AFCIs; none tripped and
turned off the circuit. Further, the author used cotton to verify if
the arc was a fire hazard. The author could not ignite the
cotton. He repeated these tests with a two-conductor heater
core carrying 15A with the same results."

http://www.combinationafci.com/resources/doc_ieee_combination_afci.pdf

 

[peter d]

What a bunch of propaganda in favor of the AFCI in that IAEI link. Nothing new that hasn't been discussed here a million times, but sad to see the same lies and scare tactics used to support the AFCI.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

At the frequencies tripping the breakers, the panel is a Faraday cage. The conductors coming into the panel are acting like antennas and that's how the RF gets into the breakers.

Ok, than all of the wiring and equipment used must also be within a Faraday cage. The equipment would be difficult, but not the wiring.

 

[K8MHZ]

Ok, than all of the wiring and equipment used must also be within a Faraday cage. The equipment would be difficult, but not the wiring.

What about the triplex coming into the house that looks like a wire antenna to RF?

 

[K8MHZ]

What a bunch of propaganda in favor of the AFCI in that IAEI link. Nothing new that hasn't been discussed here a million times, but sad to see the same lies and scare tactics used to support the AFCI.

But it was good to see the ONLY comment on the site was definitely not in favor of AFCI's.

:thumbsup:

 

[don_resqcapt19]

What about the triplex coming into the house that looks like a wire antenna to RF?

Not an easy way around that...I guess the AFCI engineers need to go back to the drawing board and design a usable product

 

[K8MHZ]

Not an easy way around that...I guess the AFCI engineers need to go back to the drawing board and design a usable product

Ya think?

I am not against arc fault protection. I am against being sold (especially when forced to use) a product that has not been proven to do what it is supposed to do.

Beside the false trip issues, what about a false sense of security?

Michigan has it's flaws, but I have to say, from personal experience, that the electrical inspection division and the way the state makes it work for all involved is top notch.

How many other jurisdictions have, as part of their licensing requirement, mandatory code upgrade classes that include the complaint process for bad inspection calls? We do.

Our state actually listens to people when they call. I know. I have done so. That's how I found out about the pending bill and the dates the new rules went into effect. I called the state.

Maybe it's the fact they listen to individuals rather than lobbies is the reason that they dropped the AFCI requirement.

 

[ramsy]

Or change the box to a double gang with two duplex AFCI receptacles, one switched, one not.

Wayne's method may be code compliant, but what handyman has a clue, and who offers it to avoid a service upgrade?

The efficacy of magnetic-trip protection may outweigh anticipated AFCI nuisances, especially with Grand-fathered builings limited to thermal-overload protection.

Before AFCI receptacles existed, this code closed the DIY loophole for most owner builders, and unlicensed contractors (non-electrical trades), or handypersons operating under minor-work exceptions.

Now these jokers can stroll big cheepo hardware for an AFCI plug w/ double-gang box, and become compliant without a service upgrade. This loophole misses the point of this code.

The panel should always be changed, if magnetic trip is missing, but with non-compliance at device replacements, the real winner remains the Insurance Industry.

Settling claims for peanuts after AFCI replacement violations are found, all adjustors need is a new device part number --that survives the fire-- on any existing circuit missing the required AFCI.

 

[ramsy]

Above was miss-posted to wrong thread --Please delete--

 

[mivey]

I am very up front about the reputation of AFCI's. So is our state. As of last month, they aren't required in Michigan.

I'm impressed. Now all the Chicken Littles will be slinging poo as fast as they can. I'm sure the manufacturers are bringing all guns to bear. I will be amazed if Michigan survives the onslaught.

 

[K8MHZ]

I'm impressed. Now all the Chicken Littles will be slinging poo as fast as they can. I'm sure the manufacturers are bringing all guns to bear. I will be amazed if Michigan survives the onslaught.

They tried on their iaei web site.

Look how far that got them.

I am pretty sure Michigan will survive.

 

[mivey]

I am pretty sure Michigan will survive.

I hope so. It would be a beacon of hope in this tempest of AFCI lunacy.

 

[K8MHZ]

I hope so. It would be a beacon of hope in this tempest of AFCI lunacy.

I think that's the nicest thing I have ever heard anyone say about Michigan!

Thanks!

Most people think Michiganders are crazy.

Much of Michigan is agricultural. If zoned agricultural, or in a building that is classified as agricultural, there are NO electrical codes enforced, no inspections done, nuthin'.

We call work on farms and the like '547' jobs, after Article 547 which is specifically written out of Michigan's electrical code. You should see some of the stuff I have seen over the years.

Land of the free, buddy. Land of the free.

And home.....of the.....brave....!!!!!

 

[kwired]

I think that's the nicest thing I have ever heard anyone say about Michigan!

Thanks!

Most people think Michiganders are crazy.

Much of Michigan is agricultural. If zoned agricultural, or in a building that is classified as agricultural, there are NO electrical codes enforced, no inspections done, nuthin'.

We call work on farms and the like '547' jobs, after Article 547 which is specifically written out of Michigan's electrical code. You should see some of the stuff I have seen over the years.

Land of the free, buddy. Land of the free.

And home.....of the.....brave....!!!!!

Laws are similar here when it comes to agriculture - no permit or inspection required - agriculture is largest industry in this state is part of reason why, other is it has always been that way. Might be some changes sometime though, already getting some POCO's wanting an inspection or they won't connect anything over 250 volts to ground regardless of what kind of customer it is - that is a start toward safer installs on the farms.