Are arc fault breakers a "solution" for houses with aluminum wiring?

[retirede]

That's a curious statement.
Loose connections cause arcing, no?

Not always. An undertorqued termination will overheat without arcing.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

That's a curious statement.
Loose connections cause arcing, no?

They might, but in many cases they just create heat...the glowing connection is not an arc, but produces enough heat to cause the wire and termination to actually glow red.

 

[Little Bill]

Since AFCI breakers don't recognize glowing connections, I'm going to invent GFCI

May have to change the name slightly as we already have GFCI
= Glowing Fault Circuit Interrupter
GCCI
Glowing Connection Circuit Interrupter!

 

[James L]

Glowing Fault Circuit Interrupter

GCI - Glow-fault Circuit Interrupter

 

[jaggedben]

Strictly speaking I don't think a glowing connection is a fault.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Since AFCI breakers don't recognize glowing connections, I'm going to invent GFCI

May have to change the name slightly as we already have GFCI
= Glowing Fault Circuit Interrupter
GCCI
Glowing Connection Circuit Interrupter!

There was a proposed device that had a thermal element that when exposed to too much heat, created a ground fault using a resistor to limit the ground fault current to 30mA or so, and to be used along with a GFCI. When the poor connection caused too much heat, it shorted to ground causing the GFCI to trip. I think it was proposed as a code requirement 3 or 4 cycles ago.

 

[letgomywago]

There was a proposed device that had a thermal element that when exposed to too much heat, created a ground fault using a resistor to limit the ground fault current to 30mA or so, and to be used along with a GFCI. When the poor connection caused too much heat, it shorted to ground causing the GFCI to trip. I think it was proposed as a code requirement 3 or 4 cycles ago.

Would that be inside of each box or each device or what was the details of the idea?

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Would that be inside of each box or each device or what was the details of the idea?

Yes, you would install one at each device and possibly at junction boxes too.

 

[letgomywago]

Yes, you would install one at each device and possibly at junction boxes too.

Good idea but man that's some serious money. Standard track house Gfpe breaker +2000 bucks + 3 bucks for each box so +400 for the house then once in the code price doubles because they don't make enough stock for them so more like 4800 bucks extra in stuff not to mention box fill.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Good idea but man that's some serious money. Standard track house Gfpe breaker +2000 bucks + 3 bucks for each box so +400 for the house then once in the code price doubles because they don't make enough stock for them so more like 4800 bucks extra in stuff not to mention box fill.

Standard GFCI breakers for each circuit and many circuits already require GFCI protection.

 

[mtnelect]

"This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease."

This sounds like a product disclaimer for "Geritol".

 

[letgomywago]

Standard GFCI breakers for each circuit and many circuits already require GFCI protection.

So would this have been included with normal gfci devices then. Was that the manufacturer suggestion. If gfci breakers were always required that'd be full space breakers only essentially then.

 

[mtnelect]

Standard GFCI breakers for each circuit and many circuits already require GFCI protection.

So, what happens if the neutrals get crossed at down stream junction boxes ?

 

[ramsy]

So, what happens if the neutrals get crossed at down stream junction boxes ?

Trips on GFCI breaker, but not line-fed GFCI outlets

 

[ramsy]

I would choose a GFCI breaker or Dual Function breaker over and AFCI breaker

Then use SQ-D and Siemens, which always had 30mA ground fault function in AFCI's.

 

[ramsy]

There is a much better chance of a glowing connection ..tripping the GFCI than an AFCI

Not if trouble occurs before the GFCI, which is line-side blind.

 

[ramsy]

(Arcs) is what AFCIs are supposed to detect and protect against.

I believe 120/240v AFCI's trip from noise in all directions, including arcs per UL1699 standard.

 

[letgomywago]

Then use SQ-D and Siemens, which always had 30mA ground fault function in AFCI's.

Plug on neutral siemens and the siemens tandem now don't have gfpe in them

 

[curt swartz]

Not if trouble occurs before the GFCI, which is line-side blind.

But this thread is about protecting AL branch circuit wiring with AFCI breakers.

 

[curt swartz]

Plug on neutral siemens and the siemens tandem now don't have gfpe in them

Yep, Square D seems to be the only one to still included it. Eaton CH might but I have not checked recently.

The GFPE is the only reason I can accept AFCI breakers.

I have said this several times on the forum over the years. It would have been better for the NEC to require GFCI protection for all 15 and 20 amp dwelling branch circuits and forget the AFCI.