Art. 210.8 New requirements of GFCI protection in dwelling units!

[trumpetplayertom]

In regards to a residence in MA, I was wondering if a hard wired electric cook top or built in oven well within 6' of the sink needs to be GFCI protected by 2020 NEC standards?
for arguments sake lets say they are both 240 volt 40 amp units.
Thanks for your help or input!

In the new code it states 15-20 amp 125-250 volt receptacles in the listed locations require gfci protection. I believe the key word is receptacles. Direct wired ranges/cooktops/ double ovens don’t use a receptacle. When the word receptacle is used, I think it would mean cord and plug connected. I will leave this up to those who are experts in where the intent of the code is going. I’m sure I will be corrected in some way!!

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Btw, I was agreeing with you.

 

[Knuckle Dragger]

Thanks for the response!
I agree with you both as well, I was wondering if I may be missing something or if it could possibly be in another article.

So what do you believe is the rational to GFCI a hardwired outdoor A/C condenser but not a hardwired appliance?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Thanks for the response!
I agree with you both as well, I was wondering if I may be missing something or if it could possibly be in another article.

So what do you believe is the rational to GFCI a hardwired outdoor A/C condenser but not a hardwired appliance?

From what I heard a child climbed a fence and landed on an a/c unit that was not properly grounded and he either died or got hurt badly-- can't remember.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Here it is-- from 2007 no less... https://www.electricallicenserenewa...ation-Courses/NEC-Content.php?sectionID=812.0

This code change came as a result of a child’s death. On August 3, 2007, a 12-year-old child jumped over a chain link fence and landed on the adjacent AC condenser unit. The condenser had an electrical ground fault which caused the unit's metal housing to become electrified. The child was fatally electrocuted when he made contact simultaneously with both the condenser and the metal fence.

 

[Knuckle Dragger]

Sad Story.
Thank you for the quick follow up!

 

[hbiss]

They'll be requiring AFCIs and GFCIs on everything trying to fix stupid. You can't fix stupid and whatever they write into code, there will always be cases where the work is done by people having no idea what they are doing. Likely most instances of cases that prompted these changes were because of exactly that. So most GFCI installations will be wasted on places that will never need their "services" because if you know enough to follow the Code you are going to do the work properly to begin with.

-Hal

 

[brantmacga]

It’s too bad we can’t get a 100/2 dual function breaker and use a split bus or separate load center for general receptacle, SABC, and lighting loads.

Would make trouble shooting more difficult but at least give customers the option of a lower up front cost.


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[mikeames]

We could always make things safer but at what cost? Do 480v parking lot lights "luminaires" / require GFCI? If not they should because kids have died. I am still not sure why snow melting equipment is an exception. If they cant make dishwashers safe and requires us to patch the "safety hole" then why is there exceptions for snow melting equipment. I don't buy the the "out of reach" argument because of AL and CU down spouts.

I am not for more of these requirements. What I find foolish is a new requirement comes up because of some incidents. There will always be these. So either set out and find all the safety possibilities and be done with the games, or be more reasonable about the probability. If ind it silly. Does the CMP say " well nobody has died on snow melting equipment so its not needed yet. I know they use the excuse that snow melting equipment has leakage but my point to them would be then fix it does it does not. We let it slide for snow melting but have to fix it for dishwashers?

I just picked snow melting equipment as an example of a GFCI exception. I don't so much care just looking for consistency.

 

[ramsy]

The code does not state direct wired is allowed but the section states receptacles, that would mean that a direct wired piece of equipment would not need gfci protection in this section of the code

Eliminating the receptacle may trigger requirement for a lockable circuit breaker, or disconnect (DC) switch within sight.

Lockable breakers are rarely seen in the wild, separate DC's are not always practical within sight, and even where inspected LOTO kits don't exist in residential.

My clients may not like it, but they get a Defective Appliance Report, when their junk trips GFCI's that normally work with similar loads. My reports document the test standard, listing requirements for appliance current leakage, and empirical evidence of field test failures.

There's little excuse for suppliers to refuse appliance returns, unless beyond warranty, or altered by the customer. Either way no casualty claims will be associated with my work.

 

[kwired]

It’s too bad we can’t get a 100/2 dual function breaker and use a split bus or separate load center for general receptacle, SABC, and lighting loads.

Would make trouble shooting more difficult but at least give customers the option of a lower up front cost.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I think what is acceptable on a single circuit would have a cumulative effect that would cause a lot of undesired tripping of a service or feeder breaker in many cases.

With GFCI only you can have 3-4 mA of leakage on an individual circuit and not trip anything. Then when you end up with 10 such circuits on a common GFCI you will have trip issues though you will have no issues on any individual circuits.

 

[kwired]

Thanks for the response!
I agree with you both as well, I was wondering if I may be missing something or if it could possibly be in another article.

So what do you believe is the rational to GFCI a hardwired outdoor A/C condenser but not a hardwired appliance?

The mentioned kid being electrocuted was the trigger. The resulting requirement was basically all outdoor outlets at dwellings other than snow and ice melting equipment and most outdoor lighting outlets need GFCI protection. An air conditioner is about the most common thing you will find that is 240 volts, but the rule includes pretty much everything outside at a dwelling regardless of the amp rating of the circuit once you have adopted 2020 code, very seldom would supply at a dwelling loads not be 120 volts to ground or over 50 amps. There are possibly some 5 ton AC units that have max OCPD of 60 though and technically as worded they shouldn't require GFCI if you supply them with a 60.

 

[Knuckle Dragger]

For all of us who live or work in Massachusetts.
I was just looking up the 527 CMR 12.00: MASSACHUSETTS ELECTRICAL CODE (AMENDMENTS)
They deleted this one: 210.8(F). Delete this requirement.

 

[jaylectricity]

On one hand, I don't like manufacturers making the rules. Same reason I don't like how money is how so many laws get passed.

On the other hand, more safety is good. And if it costs more, that's not out of our pocket.

 

[sparky1118]

For all of us who live or work in Massachusetts.
I was just looking up the 527 CMR 12.00: MASSACHUSETTS ELECTRICAL CODE (AMENDMENTS)
They deleted this one: 210.8(F). Delete this requirement.

Good to know. I haven’t been able to take my code class yet. So if I’m interpreting this correctly we do not have to have GFCI protection for say a 30 amp two pole A/C condenser?

 

[romex jockey]

It’s too bad we can’t get a 100/2 dual function breaker

Some sort of residential application of 230.95?

Or descending main ma (A, B, C, ) much like our euro counterparts>

~RJ~

 

[Knuckle Dragger]

Good to know. I haven’t been able to take my code class yet. So if I’m interpreting this correctly we do not have to have GFCI protection for say a 30 amp two pole A/C condenser?

I installed one GFCI protected feed to a outdoor unit this past March before I talked to another electrician who had the 2020 M.A..
Oh well..