Article 210.12(B) AFCI Requirements

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Don't forget, the approved plans is your ultimate answer.
After the plans are submitted to the AHJ and he reviews and stamps them as approved, the area in question is answered by the architect's name for the space. In other words, what is the name of the area on the print labeled?
 
BHP said:
Don't forget, the approved plans is your ultimate answer.
After the plans are submitted to the AHJ and he reviews and stamps them as approved, the area in question is answered by the architect's name for the space. In other words, what is the name of the area on the print labeled?
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For the most part I agree. Here is what I saw Monday. A storage closet off of a loft.

The builder put no shelves in it because there was no way to have the lights (keyless) meet code for a clothes closet (sloped ceiling). The buyer wants to hang clothes in it and install shelves.

Tricky call?

This is a 4 family. How do we protect the other owners without failing the owner for having an approved plan?

Should the plans say "Storage Only not approved for clothes storage" or should it just say storage?
 
jxofaltrds said:
But that is not what the code says.
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If it's about what the Code says, then in this list:
  1. family rooms
  2. dining rooms
  3. living rooms
  4. parlors
  5. libraries
  6. dens
  7. bedrooms
  8. sunrooms
  9. recreation rooms
  10. closets, hallways
  11. similar rooms or areas
In this list what is similar to an area with hot and cold water, exhaust venting, sewer drain and gas (if needed)?
 
al hildenbrand said:
If it's about what the Code says, then in this list:
  1. family rooms
  2. dining rooms
  3. living rooms
  4. parlors
  5. libraries
  6. dens
  7. bedrooms
  8. sunrooms
  9. recreation rooms
  10. closets, hallways
  11. similar rooms or areas
In this list what is similar to an area with hot and cold water, exhaust venting, sewer drain and gas (if needed)?
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Read the commentary. It only addresses kitchens, bathrooms, unfinished basements, garages and outdoors. Laundry is not listed.
 
jxofaltrds said:
How do we protect the other owners without failing the owner for having an approved plan?
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At the time of the inspection you are inspecting the current owner's work.

Until the ownership transfers, the "new owners" "might" be the new owners in fact.

A new owner can turn the family room into the second kitchen . . . so, by your of protecting this "might be" owner from his/er change of use of the dwelling from the current actual owner's approved plans, you would fail the actual owner's work.

That's not right, IMO.
 
This can be a little 'tricky'

For laundry, there can be a laundry room or a laundry area.

Laundry equipment installed in a room with the wording on a print saying Laundry Room, would be a laundry room. Easy for us to distinguish.

Laundry equipment installed in an 'area', such as the corner of an unfinished basement, meets the requirement of 210.52(F)

210.11(C) discusses laundry circuits.

210.12 discusses locations that Arc-Fault protection is required.

I do not see laundry listed, or as a 'similar room or areas'.

So, does the laundry receptacle require Arc-fault protection?


What about a laundry receptacle installed in the dining room?
 
Pierre C Belarge said:
This can be a little 'tricky'
.
.
What about a laundry receptacle installed in the dining room?
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:)
I think the key to this is in the word area.

The laundry mechanicals and machine(s) occupy an area that is not similar to a dining area even when they are in the same room.
 
Pierre C Belarge said:
This can be a little 'tricky'

For laundry, there can be a laundry room or a laundry area.

Laundry equipment installed in a room with the wording on a print saying Laundry Room, would be a laundry room. Easy for us to distinguish.

Laundry equipment installed in an 'area', such as the corner of an unfinished basement, meets the requirement of 210.52(F)

210.11(C) discusses laundry circuits.

210.12 discusses locations that Arc-Fault protection is required.

I do not see laundry listed, or as a 'similar room or areas'.

So, does the laundry receptacle require Arc-fault protection?


What about a laundry receptacle installed in the dining room?[/QUOTE]

I say it's not allowed, it must be a small appliance circuit then, and a washer or dryer is a large appliance.:D
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al hildenbrand said:
:)
I think the key to this is in the word area.

The laundry mechanicals and machine(s) occupy an area that is not similar to a dining area even when they are in the same room.
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So you're saying that laundry areas within dining rooms would require AFCI then? If the non-required area is located in the required room, then since the container is marked "required", then...
 
jxofaltrds said:
Yes. The IAEI Power Point presentation only shows kitchens, bathrooms and garages as not requiring AFCI protection.

Do I think that they wanted to exempt GFCI's or related circuits? Yes. But that is not what the code says.
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So now the IAEI power point presentations are the adopted code?

The actual language in 210.12(B) does not include laundry areas as places where outlets are required to be AFCI protected.

Chris
 
My first thought when I read "where" afci's are required is that all of those locations are areas where you would see cords plugged in and left for a very long time, like years, for lamps and things like that or run under rugs. Your not likely to see that in a laundry room, kitchen, bath etc.
 
George Stolz said:
So you're saying that laundry areas within dining rooms would require AFCI then? If the non-required area is located in the required room, then since the container is marked "required", then...
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Heh! Now that is interesting!

Dining Rooms are in the 210.12(B) list, but "dining area" in not. A room with two areas is now neither a dining room nor a laundry room.

:cool: And, since "dining area" is not on the list, no AFCI protection is required in the dining area. . . strictly speaking. . . I'm just saying . . . :roll:


Consider the single large 30' x 40' "room" with the
  1. Front Entry
  2. Living Area
  3. Dining Area
  4. Hallway Area
  5. Family Area
  6. Library Area
  7. Laundry Area
  8. Mechanical / Utility Area
  9. and Kitchen Area
contained therein. (And there is a Bath with four walls around it in the corner).

What is the name of the "container" that has #1 thru #9 in it?
 
al hildenbrand said:
Heh! Now that is interesting!

Dining Rooms are in the 210.12(B) list, but "dining area" in not. A room with two areas is now neither a dining room nor a laundry room.

:cool: And, since "dining area" is not on the list, no AFCI protection is required in the dining area. . . strictly speaking. . . I'm just saying . . . :roll:


Consider the single large 30' x 40' "room" with the
  1. Front Entry
  2. Living Area
  3. Dining Area
  4. Hallway Area
  5. Family Area
  6. Library Area
  7. Laundry Area
  8. Mechanical / Utility Area
  9. and Kitchen Area
contained therein. (And there is a Bath with four walls around it in the corner).

What is the name of the "container" that has #1 thru #9 in it?
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Studio Apartment?:cool::)))
 
jumper said:
Studio Apartment?:cool::)))
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Sure. That's a name that will do. There might be others.

I note that it is not on the 210.12(B) list where AFCI is required.

And, @George, since the "container" doesn't require AFCI, then AFCI doesn't go anywhere in the contained areas?

(Opps. I forgot "Bed Area" in Post #35.)
 
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raider1 said:
So now the IAEI power point presentations are the adopted code?

The actual language in 210.12(B) does not include laundry areas as places where outlets are required to be AFCI protected.

Chris
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So any teaching material should be ignored? How do you feel about the commentary?

jumper said:
Maybe in OH, but not in VA.:)
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While Ohio used the PP to teach the changes in the 2008 NEC these are my opinions not the state's.
 
acrwc10 said:
Pierre C Belarge said:
This can be a little 'tricky'

For laundry, there can be a laundry room or a laundry area.

So, does the laundry receptacle require Arc-fault protection?


What about a laundry receptacle installed in the dining room?[/QUOTE]

I say it's not allowed, it must be a small appliance circuit then, and a washer or dryer is a large appliance.:D
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That is so not true. Are you telling me that I cannot install an airconditioning receptacle in the dining room. What if I want to install a receptacle in the ceiling for a luminaire?
where in the NEC/building code can I reference that laundry equipment is not permitted in the dining room.


** Remember there are many people who tend to use the sq footage in their dwelling the way the choose to see fit, which may be much different that you or I or anyone else would ever think of.




al hildenbrand said:
:)
I think the key to this is in the word area.

The laundry mechanicals and machine(s) occupy an area that is not similar to a dining area even when they are in the same room.
Click to expand...

I tend to agree with this statement.

acrwc10 said:
My first thought when I read "where" afci's are required is that all of those locations are areas where you would see cords plugged in and left for a very long time, like years, for lamps and things like that or run under rugs. Your not likely to see that in a laundry room, kitchen, bath etc.
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It never ceases to amaze me how some will apply their own logic to make code requirements work for themselves.

I have had my coffee machine plugged into the same receptacle for YEARS...don't you dare try to change that.........;)


Are you moving your laundry equipment around every day or just weekly...where are you moving it to????:D

My sister has had her electric tooth brush plugged into the same receptacle since having her bathroom renovated.

I repeat:
** Remember there are many people who tend to use the sq footage in their dwelling the way the choose to see fit, which may be much different that you or I or anyone else would ever think of.
Click to expand...
 
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