Article 210.12(B) AFCI Requirements

[jumper]

Yes. The IAEI Power Point presentation only shows kitchens, bathrooms and garages as not requiring AFCI protection.

Do I think that they wanted to exempt GFCI's or related circuits? Yes. But that is not what the code says.

Read the commentary. It only addresses kitchens, bathrooms, unfinished basements, garages and outdoors. Laundry is not listed.

So any teaching material should be ignored? How do you feel about the commentary?



While Ohio used the PP to teach the changes in the 2008 NEC these are my opinions not the state's.

You have confused me.:-?

You state that AFCI is required in laundry areas, because of commentary and IAEI PP, but then you say this is your opinion and not the states.

When you inspect, what do you enforce? Code or commentary?

 

[jxofaltrds]

You have confused me.:-?

You state that AFCI is required in laundry areas, because of commentary and IAEI PP, but then you say this is your opinion and not the states.

When you inspect, what do you enforce? Code or commentary?

Do not feel bad I confuse people all the time.

No I am not saying that it is required. I am saying that it is not exempt.

Both the PP and handbook tell us what is exempt.

Code is what is enforced. The commentary is just a useful 'tool' to show to others so that they will know that it is not the code according to "Mike" (Me).

It would have been nice if the code said "all areas except" but it does not.

 

[jumper]

Do not feel bad I confuse people all the time.

Yeah, but I too easy of a target.

No I am not saying that it is required. I am saying that it is not exempt.

:-?

Both the PP and handbook tell us what is exempt.

I have neither, just a NEC and it says what it says.

It would have been nice if the code said "all areas except" but it does not.

Agreed.

 

[raider1]

Both the PP and handbook tell us what is exempt.

No they don't they tells us the opinion of the authors feel is exempt not what the code says is exempt.

Code is what is enforced.

Correct, and 210.12(B) does NOT require a laundry area to be AFCI protected.

The commentary is just a useful 'tool' to show to others so that they will know that it is not the code according to "Mike" (Me).

The commentary is just the opinion of the authors and does not hold any more weight they anybody's personal opinion.

It would have been nice if the code said "all areas except" but it does not.

The tells us the areas that are required to have AFCI protection and laundry areas are not included.

Chris

 

[raider1]

So any teaching material should be ignored? How do you feel about the commentary?

I did not say that but you can't use teaching material or the opinion of the handbook authors in stead of the actual language of the code. Just because the IAEI power point or the handbook did not include an "Exemption" for laundry rooms does not mean that the language in the NEC requires it.

While Ohio used the PP to teach the changes in the 2008 NEC these are my opinions not the state's.

I use the IAEI power point presentations in some of my classes, but I do not treat the PP slides as if they were the code.

Chris

 

[al hildenbrand]

It would have been nice if the code said "all areas except" but it does not.

And there, in your words, is the heart of this discussion.

2008 NEC 210.12(b) does say "and similar rooms or areas".

That is to say "and similar rooms or similar areas".


Writing the list in 210.12(B) out as a list, I contend that, because of "or similar areas", the list becomes:

1. family rooms
2. family areas
3. dining rooms
4. dining areas
5. living rooms
6. living areas
7. parlors
8. parlor rooms
9. parlor areas
10. libraries
11. library rooms
12. library areas
13. dens
14. den rooms
15. den areas
16. bedrooms
17. bed areas
18. sunrooms
19. sun areas
20. recreation rooms
21. recreation areas
22. closets
23. closet rooms
24. closet areas
25. hallways
26. hallway areas
27. similar rooms
28. similar areas

And, again, laundry machine(s) and the associated mechanicals (water, sewer, gas, venting) are not similar to any of the 28 points on this list. THEREFORE the Code is silent about laundries.

The Code silence cannot be interpreted as a "YOU SHALL NOT".

If, as Mike Parks says, "the Code said 'all areas except'", then the list would be different, but the Code does not say that.

210.12(B) only lists where AFCI is required, and is silent about where it is NOT required.

 

[jxofaltrds]

And there, in your words, is the heart of this discussion.

2008 NEC 210.12(b) does say "and similar rooms or areas".

That is to say "and similar rooms or similar areas".


Writing the list in 210.12(B) out as a list, I contend that, because of "or similar areas", the list becomes:

1. family rooms
2. family areas
3. dining rooms
4. dining areas
5. living rooms
6. living areas
7. parlors
8. parlor rooms
9. parlor areas
10. libraries
11. library rooms
12. library areas
13. dens
14. den rooms
15. den areas
16. bedrooms
17. bed areas
18. sunrooms
19. sun areas
20. recreation rooms
21. recreation areas
22. closets
23. closet rooms
24. closet areas
25. hallways
26. hallway areas
27. similar rooms
28. similar areas

And, again, laundry machine(s) and the associated mechanicals (water, sewer, gas, venting) are not similar to any of the 28 points on this list. THEREFORE the Code is silent about laundries.

The Code silence cannot be interpreted as a "YOU SHALL NOT".

If, as Mike Parks says, "the Code said 'all areas except'", then the list would be different, but the Code does not say that.

210.12(B) only lists where AFCI is required, and is silent about where it is NOT required.

The "shall" argument has caused me to change my mind for a laundry room.

Now if the W/D were in a closet off of a hallway would AFCI protection be required?

 

[al hildenbrand]

Now if the W/D were in a closet off of a hallway would AFCI protection be required?

As I said in Post #35 of this thread:

Dining Rooms are in the 210.12(B) list, but "dining area" is not. A room with two areas is now neither a dining room nor a laundry room.

Substitute Closet for Dining.

The "W/D", as you write, has a list of mechanicals that are part of what makes a "laundry area". I have, in the posts of this thread, not included the ELECTRICAL part.

The electrical outlet(s) that supply the "W/D" is the part that completes the installation of the the "laundry area". It is not required to have AFCI.

One opens the bi fold doors in the hallway onto the "laundry area". Just because the same type of bi fold doors are used on the master bed closet, doesn't remove the laundry area.

 

[jxofaltrds]

OK.

I am convinced.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

As I said in Post #35 of this thread:
Substitute Closet for Dining.

The "W/D", as you write, has a list of mechanicals that are part of what makes a "laundry area". I have, in the posts of this thread, not included the ELECTRICAL part.

The electrical outlet(s) that supply the "W/D" is the part that completes the installation of the the "laundry area". It is not required to have AFCI.

One opens the bi fold doors in the hallway onto the "laundry area". Just because the same type of bi fold doors are used on the master bed closet, doesn't remove the laundry area.

Does this mean that an iron or iron/board manufactured product is not laundry equipment?


That is a good analogy.

 

[elohr46]

Read the commentary. It only addresses kitchens, bathrooms, unfinished basements, garages and outdoors. Laundry is not listed.

Laundry room is not listed probably because not every dwelling has a specific room designated just for the laundry area. Many are located in the basement which is not required to have AFCI protection.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Does this mean that an iron or iron/board manufactured product is not laundry equipment?

I'll toss your "tricky" back at you. :grin:

I'm thinking you mean a built in ironing center (commonly wall mounted and hard wired).

If the ironing center is in the laundry area or laundry room, then it is part of the area or room.

The ironing center, however, can be mounted anywhere else, away, and independent of the mechanicals that define a laundry area.

Considering the laundry area behind the bi fold doors in the hallway: If the ironing center is behind the bi fold doors with the laundry, it's in the laundry area; If the ironing center is mounted on the hallway wall outside the laundry area bi fold doors, then the ironing center is in the hallway.

The ironing center by itself is not a laundry area, IMO.

 

[jxofaltrds]

Laundry room is not listed probably because not every dwelling has a specific room designated just for the laundry area. Many are located in the basement which is not required to have AFCI protection.

I know. But many laundries are installed in closets off hallways on 2nd floors next to bedrooms. A sleeping area with a laundry. I believe the intent was to exempt GFCI circuits but some how it is interpreted as the whole area. So I could add a circuit for lights, irons, whatever in the area close to the bedrooms.

Also garage lighting circuits with habitable rooms above.

I am not changing my mind back just trying to figure out the intent.

 

[al hildenbrand]

I believe the intent was to exempt GFCI circuits but some how it is interpreted as the whole area.

Do you have a reference from the CMPs for that?

 

[pete m.]

This may work...

This may work...

Perhaps we should just provide GFCI, AFCI, LCDI and GFP for every bit of the electrical installation and then... POOF!!... all worry over what room or area is what goes away:grin:

Pete

 

[rcarroll]

My laundry "area" is behind bi-fold doors accessed from my bathroom - an "area" including a basin, toilet, tub & shower. I have neither AFCI nor GFCI protection on my washer outlet.:grin:
I Know I don't need AFCI protection, should I have had GFCI protection on the washer outlet:-?:grin:
Just thought I'd throw that in there.
BTW, my vanity outlet is GFI protected.

 

[George Stolz]

I am not changing my mind back just trying to figure out the intent.

I think if you click here you might find the end of your search.

 

[jxofaltrds]

Do you have a reference from the CMPs for that?

The original intent was for the entire structure. This is not what happen. Since it is poorly written and laundry is not listed I changed my mind.

http://www.electriciantalk.com/f5/arc-faults-everywhere-281/

 

[cowboyjwc]

A code cycle ago no one liked AFCI's now suddenly half of you want to install them where they're not required.

How many guys put GFCI's next to sinks in commercial buildings even though it's not required?

I would agree that a laundry room is not a similar area, unless you eat, sleep or sit in there.

 

[rcarroll]

How many guys put GFCI's next to sinks in commercial buildings even though it's not required?

GFI protection is required '08 NEC 210.8(B)(5)