But the articles limit the one supply to the type being considered. That is, aside from exceptions, 230 limits the structure to one service, while 225 limits the structure to one feeder or branch circuit. Neither correlate with the other to specifically state only one supply no matter the type.
Articles 225 and 230- Detached Gargae
- Thread starter Dennis Alwon
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david
Senior Member
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- Pennsylvania
Again I do not read it that way.
225.30 is titled number of supplies not number of feeders or branch circuits
it further states from the load side of the service disconnecting means their can only be one feeder or branch circuit supplying a building or structure that is supplied by a feeder or branch circuit
That would be a additional building s from a single service disconnecting means
225.30 is titled number of supplies not number of feeders or branch circuits
it further states from the load side of the service disconnecting means their can only be one feeder or branch circuit supplying a building or structure that is supplied by a feeder or branch circuit
That would be a additional building s from a single service disconnecting means
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Not saying you can't or shouldn't read it that way. I'm only playing the role of devil's advocate for our discussion...
Yes, 225.30 is titled Number of Supplies, but you also have to take into account the context of the Article title "Outside Branch Circuits and Feeders", scope as described in 225.1, plus the Part II title "Buildings or Other Structures Supplied by a Feeder(s) or Branch Circuit(s)".
Additionally, the general consensus regarding Code implementation is permissive. That is, unless specifically prohibited the objective is permitted. Neither Article 225 or Article 230 specifically prohibit a building or structure from being supplied by both a service and a feeder or branch circuit.
Also, you're also assuming the fact both originate from the same source has bearing on the matter. Consider 225.30(D), which states "Additional feeders or branch circuits shall be permitted for different voltages, frequencies, or phases or for different uses, such as control of outside lighting from multiple locations." It only uses the underlined as an example. Does this specifically exclude a desire to power a load or loads through a different meter? No.
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- Retired Electrical Contractor
Article 225 is about feeders or outside branch circuits so the number of supplies is about feeders not services or supplies in general
fmtjfw
Senior Member
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- Fairmont, WV, USA
NO it is about feeders and services:
225.37 Identification. Where a building or structure has any combination of feeders, branch circuits, or services passing through it or supplying it, a permanent plaque or directory shall be installed at each feeder and branch-circuit disconnect location denoting all other services, feeders, or branch circuits supplying that building or structure or passing through that building or structure and the area served by each.
NO it is regarding outside feeders and branch circuits only.
Says so right in Artcle 225 title, and there's the scope [225.1]. Just because text within refers to "services" does not make it a requirement for services.
fmtjfw
Senior Member
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- Fairmont, WV, USA
Parallel neutrals and grounding conductors are not necessarily bad.
Separate grounding means without interconnection is considered bad.
You don't want different voltages on the conductive surfaces of different objects in the same building.
Case in point: I worked for a computer company that had a building served by two different power companies (don't ask). There were rooms which had receptacles from both power companies. When you hooked up components of a single computer system using signal cables (using chassis ground as part of the signaling circuit), the cables would sometimes catch fire. The signal cables were unable to pass the current required to equalize the "ground" for both POCOs.
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OK. So if there is a service and a feeder you only have to label the feeder?
That is not what it explicitly says.
Do you argue that all code requirements that do not fall narrowly under the words in the section title are null and void?
That is not what it explicitly says.
Do you argue that all code requirements that do not fall narrowly under the words in the section title are null and void?
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- Location
- Massachusetts
I argue that a code article only applies to what it says it applies to.
It does not mention services and services are a well defined thing.
fmtjfw
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- Fairmont, WV, USA
Titles and scopes are generic. The nitty-gritty is in the body of the text. Both 225 and 230 reference situations with more than one service and/or separate branch circuit(s) and/or separate feeder(s).
225.30 Number of Supplies. A building or other structure that is served by a branch circuit or feeder on the load side of a service disconnecting means shall be supplied by only one feeder or branch circuit unless permitted in 225.30(A) through (E). For the purpose of this section, a multiwire branch circuit shall be considered a single circuit.
Where a branch circuit or feeder originates in these additional buildings or other structures, only one feeder or
branch circuit shall be permitted to supply power back to the original building or structure, unless permitted in
225.30(A) through (E).
(B) Special Occupancies. By special permission, additional feeders or branch circuits shall be permitted for either of the following:
(1) Multiple-occupancy buildings where there is no space available for supply equipment accessible to all occupants
AND
230.2 Number of Services. A building or other structure served shall be supplied by only one service unless permitted in 230.2(A) through (D).
(B) Special Occupancies. By special permission, additional services shall be permitted for either of the following:
(1) Multiple-occupancy buildings where there is no available space for service equipment accessible to all occupants
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- Location
- Massachusetts
No, absolutely not.
The scopes and titles are just as much code as any other sections in the article.
We do not get to ignore the scope when it suits us.
fmtjfw
Senior Member
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- Fairmont, WV, USA
So where would you put requirements for wiring in a building that is fed from both services and feeders? Article 227 Things that Fall between 225 and 230
And how can 225 discuss disconnects and OCPDs that are found inside buildings? see 225.32 Location for example. That is clearly out of scope by your definition.
david
Senior Member
- Location
- Pennsylvania
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I fail to see where you are even coming from in these posts. Earlier you brought up 225.37 regarding "any combination of feeders, branch circuits, or services passing through it or supplying it". There mere mention of any combination of the listed items have a logical conclusion that feeders and services are permitted to supply a single structure whether Article 225 applies only to outside feeders and branch circuits or not.
Actually the feeder is the only disconnect requiring a plaque or directory... but note it must provide location where all other supplies to that structure originate, including the [other] service location.
PetrosA
Senior Member
- Location
- Lancaster, Pennsylvania
I like Smart $'s idea to put the meters and disconnects in one location in a situation like this (although it's a moot point anyway at this time).
I'm also interested in the 225.37 requirement for labeling. The only time I've run into a situation that I think might qualify under this section was when wiring a lighting showroom located in something of a strip mall. We found JBs that were not originating from any of our panels which turned out to be powering outside lighting. Does the presence of these circuits trigger labeling requirements in the individual units?
I'm also interested in the 225.37 requirement for labeling. The only time I've run into a situation that I think might qualify under this section was when wiring a lighting showroom located in something of a strip mall. We found JBs that were not originating from any of our panels which turned out to be powering outside lighting. Does the presence of these circuits trigger labeling requirements in the individual units?
Only if the individual units are supplied by a feeder or branch circuit originating at another structure.
david
Senior Member
- Location
- Pennsylvania
I try and explain it this way, when you go to the service location for that unit open the service disconnects (1-6) for each type present and you still have circuits live originating from another service disconnect location then something is wrong.
I see you are from PA. if your strip mall is set up like a lot that I see, this is a common violation with the service disconnect in the stock room for that unit, the service for the site lighting at its own location with the branch circuit for that lighting passing through the unit
david
Senior Member
- Location
- Pennsylvania
imagine the unit with MC cable and you are sent their for a total tear down and rebuilt for the unit, Even though you opened the service disconnect(s) even if someone doesn't get hurt they are going to need a new pair of linesman's
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
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- Retired Electrical Contractor
Why? If the disconnects are grouped and labeled that should not be an issue and what does MC have to do with it?:?
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