Automotive "chip"

[oldsparky52]

And in spite of what the old time mechanics predicted, all this complicated stuff is actually lasting longer than ever, instead of failing early and costing customer millions.

Back in the 60's, if you got 100,000 miles out of a car you were doing good. Now, I routinely see cars with over 200,000 miles on them.

 

[K8MHZ]

60's were points, plugs, condenser all got changed twice per year. Had a timing light to check/set the timing.

Many years later I got a good deal on a used 1981 Camaro Berlinetta. Tried tweaking the timing a little and blown away when no matter how far I twisted the distributor, the timing didn't change.

I started reading about this car and .... I haven't worked on one since, lol.

I remember those. Most likely 5.0 L V-8.

Nope, simply making a timing adjustment did nothing. Now, if you 'punched' the cat, got a hi-flow air filter(s) and THEN advanced the timing a little, they would at least 'squeak' the tires going into second with the automatic tranny. IIRC, 1981 was the first year for Camaros to have a 'check engine' light on them.

 

[drcampbell]

And now all I need for CAN bus is a $39 adapter cable and a $40 program for my Android tablet. ...

The full suite included tools for doing stuff like testing the bus at maximum & minimum signal voltages, maximum & minimum data rates and minimum signal-to-noise ratios. If I recall correctly, that particular bus-stressing package was called CANcrusher.

 

[K8MHZ]

Back in the 60's, if you got 100,000 miles out of a car you were doing good. Now, I routinely see cars with over 200,000 miles on them.

I am driving a Caravan that has 206,000 miles on it and when cleaned up, looks like new on the inside and almost like new on the outside. The engine purrs and I can get up to 20 mpg avg. in the summer if I drive conservatively.

 

[K8MHZ]

The full suite included tools for doing stuff like testing the bus at maximum & minimum signal voltages, maximum & minimum data rates and minimum signal-to-noise ratios. If I recall correctly, that particular bus-stressing package was called CANcrusher.

That would be great!! I would love to be able to 'force' data from sensors and monitor the results.

 

[ptonsparky]

Back in the 60's, if you got 100,000 miles out of a car you were doing good. Now, I routinely see cars with over 200,000 miles on them.

My Dad was impressed with 50,000 miles on his late 40s and early to mid 50s.

 

[K8MHZ]

My Dad was impressed with 50,000 miles on his late 40s and early to mid 50s.

He would have done 25 oil changes and went through two sets of tires, too.

Good old days, huh?

 

[drcampbell]

Back in the 60's, if you got 100,000 miles out of a car you were doing good. Now, I routinely see cars with over 200,000 miles on them.

One of the reasons is the precise closed-loop feedback control made possible by using a brain box.

By preventing the mixture from ever being overly rich, you prevent the the oil from ever being diluted with gasoline and compromising the lubrication. (which also extends the oil-change interval)
By preventing the mixture from ever being overly lean, you protect the exhaust valves and spark plugs from premature burnout caused by excessive temperatures and surplus oxygen.
Fuel consumption also improves, because you never put more fuel into the cylinder than it can use, and because you seldom have a misfire, in which all the fuel for that stroke goes right out the tailpipe without creating any useful mechanical power.

I know the libertarians aren't going to like this, but it would have never happened without government regulation of tailpipe emissions.
(and in countries where emission regulations are not so stringent or non-existent, they still use carburettors)

 

[oldsparky52]

I am driving a Caravan that has 206,000 miles on it and when cleaned up, looks like new on the inside and almost like new on the outside. The engine purrs and I can get up to 20 mpg avg. in the summer if I drive conservatively.

I purchased a new car in August of 2017. It now has 5,200 miles on it. :lol:

I almost never drive my van. I had to jump a battery (that was new in Dec 2017) a few weeks ago because it had been so long since I started it.

 

[bkludecke]

In high school ('60s) and into my 20s & 30s I was an avid weekend auto mechanic. Fast forward to now - the truck I purchased new in 2015 - I had never even opened the hood in the first year or two and finally did figure out how to open it one day when I needed to jump start another vehicle. I usually go regularly to a good mechanic for maintenance but recently was in a hurry and had the oil changed at a place where you never even get out of the vehicle. Yep, vehicles are much, much better these days.

 

[Jraef]

My grandson chipped his gas burner Dodge Dakota and wasn't impressed with the change, if any. They allow a full refund if he wasn't happy so it goes out in the mail today. High dollar unit of about $29 IIRC. I won't hold my breath over that refund.

I could not see how it did anything at all because it was hooked in parallel with the engine block temperature sensor. ??

Someone enlighten me if possible.

Back in 2006 I got a job at Siemens that came with a car and they gave me a Dodge Magnum with the FI V6. I loved it but it was a "leftover" from someone else and it maxed out on the fleet mileage after 6 months, so they got me a new one. But the fleet specs had changed and I was given a Charger, but with the L6 gutless wonder engine. So I invested in one of those "chips" and it definitely DID improve the performance. I am in California, so maybe it worked because it bypassed or tricked the emissions controls. I know that because they warned me that if I was required to get a Smog certificate, I would have to replace the original chip first, otherwise it wouldn't pass and they would be able to tell why.

 

[kwired]

Actually, the newer models are easier to diagnose using a scan tool. They will locate the exact cylinder a problem is occurring on. The ones with O2 sensors for each cylinder will indicate via scan tool if the problem is ignition or fuel/air.

The one I have can also be used on diesels, from small Ford Power Strokes to 14 liter semi engines. I can do 'buzz tests' on Ford injectors with it. Thats where a signal is sent to the injectors one at a time so you can hear if they are working or not. Nice feature.

As interesting as they are, working on them still sucks. But I do my own and work for friends and family. I have too much invested in car tools to just let them sit idle.

But do you understand how those newer systems all work? Do you know if certain or even all the sensors sends it's own information to the main processor via a common bus? If so it may be possible to tap something else into same bus to manipulate the main controller, if not tapping into a particular sensor circuit probably only modifies the apparent status of that particular sensor.

Today's average auto technician doesn't know how everything works, just how to read the scan tool and do what associated software tells him to do with the results.

 

[K8MHZ]

But do you understand how those newer systems all work? Do you know if certain or even all the sensors sends it's own information to the main processor via a common bus? If so it may be possible to tap something else into same bus to manipulate the main controller, if not tapping into a particular sensor circuit probably only modifies the apparent status of that particular sensor.

Today's average auto technician doesn't know how everything works, just how to read the scan tool and do what associated software tells him to do with the results.

Yes, I understand how the systems work. I don't work on them for a living any longer, but I still keep up with them. I don't modify them as there are enough people trying to do that already. And yes, it is possible to substitute sensors with devices that send fixed or known info back to the controller to test response functions. The 'scanner' that Mr. Campbell was talking about could do that from the controller, no device substitution was needed.

Before I got into automotive electronics, I took every chemistry and physics class I could in high school and college. I went on to work in a R&D lab for a jet aerospace facility and learned even more there.

I was one of the few that welcomed computer control in the early '80s. Now the systems are amazing. So much more diagnostics can be done without touching a wrench. Even a loose gas cap will set a code.

 

[kwired]

Yes, I understand how the systems work. I don't work on them for a living any longer, but I still keep up with them. I don't modify them as there are enough people trying to do that already. And yes, it is possible to substitute sensors with devices that send fixed or known info back to the controller to test response functions. The 'scanner' that Mr. Campbell was talking about could do that from the controller, no device substitution was needed.

Before I got into automotive electronics, I took every chemistry and physics class I could in high school and college. I went on to work in a R&D lab for a jet aerospace facility and learned even more there.

I was one of the few that welcomed computer control in the early '80s. Now the systems are amazing. So much more diagnostics can be done without touching a wrench. Even a loose gas cap will set a code.

I knew from past conversations you were once very good at this, was just wondering if you have kept up to date with what is out there in the newest vehicles, not just what they can do but how it works?

 

[K8MHZ]

I knew from past conversations you were once very good at this, was just wondering if you have kept up to date with what is out there in the newest vehicles, not just what they can do but how it works?

Not in great detail, but here it is in a nutshell.

In 1990, the Chrysler schools I went to were all raving about the upcoming 'data bus' that would allow every sensor to talk back to the ECM on the same wire and thus, save a bunch of copper. What really happened is that the CAN bus standard allowed for sensors and devices in sub systems to communicate with each other without 'bothering' the ECM with extraneous data. Now a sub system is an input and there are fewer sub systems than sensors, thankfully. The system is still a BIOS, or basic input output system that takes input from the sub systems and and drives the individual output systems, including the throttle (scary, I know!!) to set parameters.

All of the above is monitored through a single connector. Only one wire and a ground is needed to monitor the engine information using the OBD II standard monitors and the standardized J1962 connector and very cheap adapters.

 

[ggunn]

Not in great detail, but here it is in a nutshell.

In 1990, the Chrysler schools I went to were all raving about the upcoming 'data bus' that would allow every sensor to talk back to the ECM on the same wire and thus, save a bunch of copper. What really happened is that the CAN bus standard allowed for sensors and devices in sub systems to communicate with each other without 'bothering' the ECM with extraneous data. Now a sub system is an input and there are fewer sub systems than sensors, thankfully. The system is still a BIOS, or basic input output system that takes input from the sub systems and and drives the individual output systems, including the throttle (scary, I know!!) to set parameters.

All of the above is monitored through a single connector. Only one wire and a ground is needed to monitor the engine information using the OBD II standard monitors and the standardized J1962 connector and very cheap adapters.

Sounds a bit like the MIDI (Musical Instrument Digital Interface) protocol.

 

[K8MHZ]

Even semi trucks are using electronic engine controllers with bussed data. The controllers are bolted to the engine block. I have one a friend gave me from a truck that had an engine fire. I just use it for show and tell.

The computers have three (IIRC, maybe four) multi pin sockets. The plugs that go into them use gold plated pins and cost around $600 each.

 

[ggunn]

Remember the "mileage enhancer" neodymium magnets you were supposed to put on your fuel line to "align the molecules" of the gasoline flowing through it?

 

[K8MHZ]

Remember the "mileage enhancer" neodymium magnets you were supposed to put on your fuel line to "align the molecules" of the gasoline flowing through it?

There has been so many of those gadgets over the years.

A company near here was involved in high mileage carbs back in the 50's. They managed to get a fuel system that would give a normally 15 mpg car 40 mpg. That was for real and verified, all that.

However.....

The fuel/air was so lean that the engine would only last 500 miles and the performance was horrible. Yes, they managed the unbelievable mileage, but it was never practical.

 

[drcampbell]

In high school ('60s) and into my 20s & 30s I was an avid weekend auto mechanic. Fast forward to now - the truck I purchased new in 2015 - I had never even opened the hood in the first year or two and finally did figure out how to open it one day when I needed to jump start another vehicle. I usually go regularly to a good mechanic for maintenance but recently was in a hurry and had the oil changed at a place where you never even get out of the vehicle. Yep, vehicles are much, much better these days.

Yep, there are computers in cars now, which eliminate a whole lot of labor once devoted to routine periodic maintenance. But there are computers on desktops now, which demand it. Other than the lack of grease under my fingernails, I'm not sure we're breaking even.

This weekend, I gave one of my cars an oil & filter change and new wiper blades. Didn't need a carburettor rebuild, lube job, ring job, or points, condenser, timing & dwell. One hour including cleanup.
I also updated my Windoze 7 laptop confuser. Nine hours. It spent the first 90 minutes "searching for updates" and I wasn't sure it hadn't crashed.
(In all fairness, I wasn't watching it every minute. It might have taken only 7 hours if I was there to click "OK" each time it said "your computer needs to be restarted now".)