backfill 300-5 F

[mwm1752]

"To be blunt, inspectors generally have no actual authority whatsoever to decide anything beyond determining whether the minimum requirements of whatever applicable code(s) they are inspecting to were met. That is the full extent of their decision making authority."

Which under the vague description in the OP is exactly what the inspector has done - Neither you or I can specifically state the condition of the soils - My first post on this was for clarification which has not been answered --- the real negligence is where he cites the excavator doing whatever he wants to after the inspection notes where given.

 

[mwm1752]

found in the IBC and IRC
104.8 Liability. The building official, member of the board of appeals or employee charged with the enforcement of this code, while acting for the jurisdiction in good faith and without malice in the discharge of the duties required by this code or other pertinent law or ordinance, shall not thereby be
rendered liable personally and is hereby relieved from personal liability for any damage accruing to persons or property as a result of any act or by reason of an act or omission in the discharge of official duties. Any suit instituted against an officer or employee because of an act performed by that officer
or employee in the lawful discharge of duties and under the provisions of this code shall be defended by legal representative of the jurisdiction until the final termination of the proceedings. The building official or any subordinate shall not be liable for cost in any action, suit or proceeding that is instituted in pursuance of the provisions of this code.
NEC
90.4 Enforcement
This Code is intended to be suitable for mandatory application by governmental bodies that exercise legal jurisdiction over electrical installations, including signaling and communications systems, and for use by insurance inspectors. The authority having jurisdiction for enforcement of the Code has the responsibility for making interpretations of the rules, for deciding on the approval of equipment and materials, and for granting the special permission contemplated in a number of the rules.

 

[kwired]

Under parts of the Code, AHJs are given the latitude to make exceptions if, in their judgement, the situation is equally safe.
Not sure just where in that decision making process the individual inspector stands, and I would expect it to vary from one AHJ to another.
Not every provision of the NEC is black and white, although it would be easier for the inspector if it were.

And many AHJ's have their own amendments, rules or written interpretations of questionable topics that kick in when some of those situations come up, that they expect their inspectors to go by. Better jurisdictions also communicate with each other when something unusual comes up and the final decision is generally not a decision made by one person but a decision agreed upon by multiple persons.

An example of written interpretation of a questionable topic is the debate over how far service conductors may enter a building before hitting an overcurrent device. NEC only says nearest point of entry, leaving it wide open for interpretation. There are many jurisdictions that do set a specific distance and they probably do have that documented somewhere and are consistent in enforcing it.

 

[petersonra]

And many AHJ's have their own amendments, rules or written interpretations of questionable topics that kick in when some of those situations come up, that they expect their inspectors to go by. Better jurisdictions also communicate with each other when something unusual comes up and the final decision is generally not a decision made by one person but a decision agreed upon by multiple persons.

An example of written interpretation of a questionable topic is the debate over how far service conductors may enter a building before hitting an overcurrent device. NEC only says nearest point of entry, leaving it wide open for interpretation. There are many jurisdictions that do set a specific distance and they probably do have that documented somewhere and are consistent in enforcing it.

and that is part of the function of an AHJ. this kind of authority is generally granted to the AHJ entity by the law that is passed to create it.

but no individual inspector ever has such authority.

 

[gadfly56]

and that is part of the function of an AHJ. this kind of authority is generally granted to the AHJ entity by the law that is passed to create it.

but no individual inspector ever has such authority.

In most of the jurisdictions I deal with in NJ, there is only one official for each discipline. The electrical inspector is usually also the sub code official. Are you making a distinction between "inspector" and "sub code official"? Or do you see only the Construction Official as being the AHJ?

 

[petersonra]

In most of the jurisdictions I deal with in NJ, there is only one official for each discipline. The electrical inspector is usually also the sub code official. Are you making a distinction between "inspector" and "sub code official"? Or do you see only the Construction Official as being the AHJ?

the ahj is never an individual.

it is the governmental entity tasked with the enforcement.

if a state has a statewide code it is probably a statewide body. they might well farm out the inspection duties to local officials. but the local officials would have no authority to accept or require something other than what is required by law, or by the regulations adopted by the ahj if they are authorized to do so.

you have to look at it as where is the legal authority to enforce the rules or code coming from. It is always state or local legislation in some way.

 

[kwired]

the ahj is never an individual.

it is the governmental entity tasked with the enforcement.

if a state has a statewide code it is probably a statewide body. they might well farm out the inspection duties to local officials. but the local officials would have no authority to accept or require something other than what is required by law, or by the regulations adopted by the ahj if they are authorized to do so.

you have to look at it as where is the legal authority to enforce the rules or code coming from. It is always state or local legislation in some way.

When you run into some smaller city, county or other local jurisdiction where there seems to be only one individual making up the rules, that is where the process doesn't work all that well. That individual is still nothing more than a representative of the AHJ, but the organization he works for doesn't have enough structure to keep him in check either and some of those people in that kind of situation do abuse their power. Some states this doesn't happen all that easily, like where I am, as local jurisdictions still have to comply with state jurisdiction requirements. It may not be as simple as it sounds, but at least you don't have one guy in one town that thinks he is a monarch, because his boss (who likely doesn't know much about electrical things) doesn't know how to control him, he still has guidelines from the state to follow.

 

[petersonra]

When you run into some smaller city, county or other local jurisdiction where there seems to be only one individual making up the rules, that is where the process doesn't work all that well. That individual is still nothing more than a representative of the AHJ, but the organization he works for doesn't have enough structure to keep him in check either and some of those people in that kind of situation do abuse their power. Some states this doesn't happen all that easily, like where I am, as local jurisdictions still have to comply with state jurisdiction requirements. It may not be as simple as it sounds, but at least you don't have one guy in one town that thinks he is a monarch, because his boss (who likely doesn't know much about electrical things) doesn't know how to control him, he still has guidelines from the state to follow.

this is very analogous to the way a police department works.

it is not unheard of for a police department in a small town to consist of a single person. that does not make him or her the police department.

 

[Steviechia2]

I saw it as no more than a post to bump the thread back to the top of search requests and not so much of a complaint.

Yes you are correct! I meant no disrespect and I did not want this post to get lost.
I did not ask inspector anymore because I like to be prepared for an argument thats why I asked.
Of course common sense tells me to put sand if it is full of rocks sticking up, but if it is a flat trench I don't see anywhere in the code that tells me i need to put sand down 1st.

 

[kwired]

this is very analogous to the way a police department works.

it is not unheard of for a police department in a small town to consist of a single person. that does not make him or her the police department.

Exactly. Then comes the fact that the general population probably have more clues on how a police department should run then they have on how an electrical code enforcement program should run. If a small town has a corrupted one man police department it probably gets more public attention than a corrupted one man electrical inspection department gets, unless maybe he has a bad enough attitude that that gets more attention than his technical knowledge does.

 

[kwired]

Yes you are correct! I meant no disrespect and I did not want this post to get lost.
I did not ask inspector anymore because I like to be prepared for an argument thats why I asked.
Of course common sense tells me to put sand if it is full of rocks sticking up, but if it is a flat trench I don't see anywhere in the code that tells me i need to put sand down 1st.

I still would like to see an inspector request sand be brought in to many areas where I dig trenches where the soil is already "sand":slaphead:

I can suggest we bury the inspector and see if he gets damaged by the backfill:lol:

 

[petersonra]

I still would like to see an inspector request sand be brought in to many areas where I dig trenches where the soil is already "sand":slaphead:

I can suggest we bury the inspector and see if he gets damaged by the backfill:lol:

I doubt he is UL listed for wet areas.