Bad NJ Electrical Inspectors

Status
Not open for further replies.
infinity

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
Mini rant. My brother holds a NJ electrical contractors license and he's building his own house. He calls for the service inspection so that he can get the permanent power on and the inspector (I'll call him Bill because I don't know his actual name) fails the service. Bill says that since he has a plastic water main he needs to install two ground rods. The service has a CEE with a #4 going to the service disconnect. This dummy Bill insists that he needs two ground rods and he's holding up getting the service connected by the POCO. Bill also stated that he needs to bond the water meter back to the service with a #4 copper conductor. The entire house is PEX and there is only a foot or so of metal piping at the meter not a metal piping system. My brother told him that he was wrong but Bill insists that he knows what he's talking about. I told him to ask for code references because Bill didn't provide any as he's required to do, if he actually looked in the book he might realize that he's wrong.

I gave my brother the applicable code references and I offered to speak to Bill but my brother is just going to do what he wants so that he doesn't have a problem at the final. I also instructed him to call the DCA and get this guy straightened out because bad inspectors just move from one job to the next enforcing imaginary code. To me since this is nothing complicated, (it's a single family house) the inspector should know what the NEC actually requires. Where do they find these guys? :unsure:
 
If they're going to continue to deprive you of your own house, roof over your head, bathroom, heat, (electric power I could probably live without out, not the others), That citation is US 18-241. You just need one other person to agree with him and make it a conspiracy.

Considering it might cost north of 150 grand to get an appointment with the right authority for that, you can buy a spool of #4 bare copper and throw in a grounding ring around the house for less money. If they're going to cost you north of the 150k, you could be well advised to build it the way you want it built and charge them with the US 18-241. Some people get charged more than the 150k and that's the way they make it.
 
I suggest that he climb the food chain; everyone has a supervisor, and for good reasons.

It's just as illegal for an inspector to fail an inspection improperly as it is for him/her to pass one improperly.
 
While not in the NEC or our local amendments, our electrical inspector will require the two ground rods, because the utility service manual requires them and the service will not get power without the rods.
 
infinity said:
Where do they find these guys? :unsure:
Click to expand...
when “Bill” was an apprentice he quickly realized he couldn’t cut it and changed career paths to become an inspector..

Seriously, I believe most electrical inspectors are wannabe electricians but can’t do the job, or they failed at their own business.
 
While the ufer (CEE) can count and be a sole electrode, if the ufer was not inspected to confirm prior to the pour being done, there is no CEE, and inspector can require either proof of 25ohm or less or the 2 ground rods. Now this is where other trades jumping ahead or GC not aware enough of the requirements do not schedule an inspection for the ufer prior to encapsulating, essentially..... the pooch, and nullifying the work done to create the ufer in the first place.
This is a big issue around here, I tell the GCs over and over again about the creation of an ufer and yet can't seem to get them on board to allow an inspection pre pour.
 
Fred B said:
While the ufer (CEE) can count and be a sole electrode, if the ufer was not inspected to confirm prior to the pour being done, there is no CEE, and inspector can require either proof of 25ohm or less or the 2 ground rods.
Click to expand...
The CEE was inspected prior to the pour. In NJ you cannot pour a footing with a CEE and no inspection. Also I cannot think of any NEC section that requires 25 ohms or less for a CEE. Do you have a code reference?
 
Hv&Lv said:
when “Bill” was an apprentice he quickly realized he couldn’t cut it and changed career paths to become an inspector..

Seriously, I believe most electrical inspectors are wannabe electricians but can’t do the job, or they failed at their own business.
Click to expand...
Wow, that's lumping all inspectors into one group. I can assure you there are far more terrible contractors than inspectors :ROFLMAO:. That said, "Bill" is most likely a combination inspector who has had very little electrical training and he is very wrong. I would call his supervisor and complain.
 
Wow, so much debate over something so simple. The inspector is wrong and should be held to account for it. If one of my folks made such a bad call there would be a serious ass chewing.
 
infinity said:
The CEE was inspected prior to the pour. In NJ you cannot pour a footing with a CEE and no inspection. Also I cannot think of any NEC section that requires 25 ohms or less for a CEE. Do you have a code reference?
Click to expand...
Your question got me looking. And now questioning my assumption that a CEE can be a solitary electrode. 250.53(A)(2) makes reference that a single rod can be used (25ohm requirement) or must be supplemented by one of the listed electrodes in 250.52(A)(2) through (A)(8) the CEE is one of them 250.52(A)(3).
If a CEE can be used solitary as an electrode how or why is it a "supplemental electrode", if CEE is present, the rod would not be needed in the first place if my prior assumption was correct?
(2017 NEC references)
 
Should you not choose your battles. If it’s cost you a little should you just not worry.
Seems like the time you put in fighting may outway the cost of just doing it.
If it’s going to take some or a lot of money then it seems time to fight.
 
AC\DC said:
Should you not choose your battles. If it’s cost you a little should you just not worry.
Seems like the time you put in fighting may outway the cost of just doing it.
If it’s going to take some or a lot of money then it seems time to fight.
Click to expand...
In this case the cost is probably $100 and about 4 hours of time. Just my 2 cents but when the inspector is dead wrong he should be called on it. Go over his head if need be. I'm not surprised at Bill's lack of knowledge. I'm a New Jersey licensed HHS electrical inspector. I can't believe the stuff some electrical inspectors say when we're all sitting in a CEU seminar. Some of them need to spend some more time reading the book.
 
infinity said:
I gave my brother the applicable code references and I offered to speak to Bill but my brother is just going to do what he wants so that he doesn't have a problem at the final. I also instructed him to call the DCA and get this guy straightened out because bad inspectors just move from one job to the next enforcing imaginary code. To me since this is nothing complicated, (it's a single family house) the inspector should know what the NEC actually requires. Where do they find these guys? :unsure:
Click to expand...
Therein lies the problem. It comes down to $$$. For the amount of $$$ it's going to cost to get the job done I would just do it to get a passed inspection. However, I would then contact the DCA (as you suggested and as you know I've done myself in the recent past) to get their input and prove the inspector wrong. Once you do that he'll know that you aren't going to standby and just do something because that's the way he wants it done. Some of these EI's like to run stuff up the flag pole to see if it flies (and also to see if you know the Code).

As an alternative, none of us usually want to go this route because you end up burning a bridge, but you can go over the EI's head and contact the town administrator and/or the mayor to get some satisfaction. State your case with DCA back-up. Townships regularly hold open meetings and you can also go to the next one and appear before the mayor and council to state your case. But who wants to take the time to go through all that when you can just install the ground rods and be done with it.
 
infinity said:
In this case the cost is probably $100 and about 4 hours of time. Just my 2 cents but when the inspector is dead wrong he should be called on it. Go over his head if need be. I'm not surprised at Bill's lack of knowledge. I'm a New Jersey licensed HHS electrical inspector. I can't believe the stuff some electrical inspectors say when we're all sitting in a CEU seminar. Some of them need to spend some more time reading the book.
Click to expand...
Part of the issue with inspectors is that you can have zero experience in that trade and get an inspectors license. So you can have building guys doing electrical inspections because they took the course and passed the test.
 
Ken_S said:
Part of the issue with inspectors is that you can have zero experience in that trade and get an inspectors license. So you can have building guys doing electrical inspections because they took the course and passed the test.
Click to expand...
I agree and this is true in many states. And we can thank the ICC for a lot of this. They operate under the premise for most of their inspector credentialing that if you can pass the exam you are good to go. There are no requirements to have any licensing or previous experience to qualify as an inspector. Sad but true.
Some states do a little better, such as Wyoming which requires by statute that an electrical inspector for a local AHJ be licensed at least as a journeyman plus have an inspector credential from ICC or IAEI.. Certain inspections must be done by a master licensed inspector. All state inspectors must be masters. Colorado will allow inspectors with a local AHJ to have only an ICC certification for 1-4 family units. For all other work he must be licensed a least as a journeyman.
In my view the competency of AHJs in most areas is going from bad to worse. Of course there are many reasons for this but it is a sad state of affairs.
 
It’s gonna take four hours to put in two ground rods and run a conductor to the meter?
 
I know that a 5 minute phone call with the DCA will probably solve the problem but then there is the blowback that no one wants to deal with. Personally I would fight this tooth and nail.


HuntNJ said:
It’s gonna take four hours to put in two ground rods and run a conductor to the meter?
Click to expand...
Yup at least an hour to go to the supply house, then install the rods, dig a small trench, run the GEC, and then run across the basement from one end of the house to the other to hit the water meter. Then open the panel and tie the GEC's in.
 
Down here (North Carolina) that is the way they enforce 250.53A2 unless you do the exception so it is easier just to drive the second rod instead of measuring the resistance
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top