Agree. The are free to defend themselves but they have to prove they're not at fault.
Bad POCO Neutral Damaged Electronics
- Thread starter Sean.Day72
- Start date
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Agree. The are free to defend themselves but they have to prove they're not at fault.
Sean.Day72
Member
- Location
- Florida
I told them the fridge shocked me and the ground rod shocked my dog . They upgraded me to “emergency” and I had a guy climbing the pole in my back yard in under an hour. Lol they clearly saw the danger and reacted quickly for lawsuit prevention. In that regard my POCO reacted appropriately because it was a dangerous situation . I feel the fridge compressor motor is still good ( I could be wrong) and ordered a new screen and thermostat. Also found a bootleg maintenance Manuel . If a high school drop out contractor can fix a fridge an Engineer should be able to figure it out . $300 experiment to fix a $3k fridge
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Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
mivey
Senior Member
Since this is 'merica, the burden of proof lies with the one making the claim.
The POCO does not assume responsibility for equipment failure. If you think they caused the failure due to negligence, then the burden is on you to present evidence to support that claim.
Prompt customer service is hardly proof of negligent behavior.
- Occupation
- Licensed Electrician
I don't see it that way at all. They reacted quickly because there was some competent people that fully understood the situation. Lawsuit prevention has got nothing to do with it. These guys get threatened with lawsuits all the time, it's a non stop barrage.
You should be glad that they did respond so quickly. There is no shortage of stories of people faced with the same circumstance that were treated with indifference when they called for help the first time.
JFletcher
Senior Member
- Location
- Williamsburg, VA
I agree with this completely. Some people are professionals simply because that's how they were trained to do their job... their career.
The only time we have needed Poco help was when Hurricane Isabel came through in 2003. Our giant oak tree didn't make it, and when it snapped 3 feet underground, it fell on the Service drop, and ripped out 60 foot of feeder to the meter lugs. a crew from Florida replaced all at 10 at night. 9 days after the fact, but the damage was widespread. they refused any refreshment or tips, they were probably making great money, but still, they did the job safely, quickly, and right... and not because of any potential lawsuit or threatened legal action. because we were people without power, and something on their end was broken... simple as that
gadfly56
Senior Member
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
I'd like to see the Board of Public Utilities tariff that lets them off that hook. By that reasoning, they would never have to maintain anything, ever.
ptonsparky
Tom
- Occupation
- EC - retired
What kind of preventative maintenance schedule would be appropriate to prevent these broken/loose neutrals? Once a year? What would be the extent of testing? Visual? Thermal imaging when outside temp is below 50 degrees? FOP?
I'm sure there would be no added costs passed down for these inspections. :happyyes:
I'm sure there would be no added costs passed down for these inspections. :happyyes:
mivey
Senior Member
There are many available. A lot of utilities publish their rules and regs online. One was posted in this very thread.
There are company established or industry accepted practices for maintenance that they normally follow. A lot of equipment has no maintenance to speak of and you replace it when it fails unless there is an obvious indicator or factor present.
mivey
Senior Member
Not sure you could prevent them completely. A normal inspection (if done) might be about 5 years and would be visual so may not find it unless there are indicators that would lead one to make a detailed inspection.
There is load test equipment for checking a loose neutral. Problem is you could test this year and it fail next year. Increasing the frequency or adding detailed inspections adds costs which increases rates and then the POCO gets complaints from that side.
Safety and reliability cost money so there is always a tug of war between how safe and reliable you can be and how much people are willing to pay. Like a POCO, we make similar choices all the time in our everyday lives and in some cases and to some degree these choices are made for us.
JFletcher
Senior Member
- Location
- Williamsburg, VA
Am I correct in assuming that nothing in Europe can ever be blown up from a lost neutral? Aren't all those installs 220-250 VAC to neutral?
It seems to me that if you want a bulletproof installation in the United States, the best way would be to spec all 240 volt appliances. Of course if that 19,920 volt high voltage wire happens to fall across the secondary, you will still be replacing electronics.
It seems to me that if you want a bulletproof installation in the United States, the best way would be to spec all 240 volt appliances. Of course if that 19,920 volt high voltage wire happens to fall across the secondary, you will still be replacing electronics.
- Occupation
- Licensed Electrician
I've always thought that we should move toward 240V circuits and equipment. It would solve neutral problems and stray voltage problems without rebuilding the whole power grid.
my utilities tariff
In all other circumstances, unless caused by the willful and/or wanton misconduct of the Company, the liability of the Company to Customers or third parties for all injuries and damages, direct or consequential, including damage to computers and other electronic equipment and appliances, or loss of business, profit or production caused by variations or interruptions in electric supply, high or low voltage, spikes, surges, single phasing, phase failure or reversal, stray voltage, neutral to earth voltage, equipment failure or malfunction, response time to electric outages or emergencies, or the non-functioning or malfunctioning of street lights or traffic control signals and devices shall be limited to Five Hundred Dollars ($500) for residential customers and Two Thousand Dollars ($2,000) for commercial and industrial customers. In no case shall the Company’s aggregate liability for multiple claims arising from a single alleged negligent act, incident, event, or omission exceed Two Hundred Thousand ($200,000). The Company’s actions that are in conformance with electric system design, the National Electrical Safety Code, or electric industry operation practices shall be conclusively deemed not to be negligent. A variety of protective devices and alternate power supply equipment that may prevent or limit such damages are available. Due to the sensitive nature of computers and other electronically controlled equipment, the Customer, especially three-phase Customers, should provide protection against variations in supply.
In all other circumstances, unless caused by the willful and/or wanton misconduct of the Company, the liability of the Company to Customers or third parties for all injuries and damages, direct or consequential, including damage to computers and other electronic equipment and appliances, or loss of business, profit or production caused by variations or interruptions in electric supply, high or low voltage, spikes, surges, single phasing, phase failure or reversal, stray voltage, neutral to earth voltage, equipment failure or malfunction, response time to electric outages or emergencies, or the non-functioning or malfunctioning of street lights or traffic control signals and devices shall be limited to Five Hundred Dollars ($500) for residential customers and Two Thousand Dollars ($2,000) for commercial and industrial customers. In no case shall the Company’s aggregate liability for multiple claims arising from a single alleged negligent act, incident, event, or omission exceed Two Hundred Thousand ($200,000). The Company’s actions that are in conformance with electric system design, the National Electrical Safety Code, or electric industry operation practices shall be conclusively deemed not to be negligent. A variety of protective devices and alternate power supply equipment that may prevent or limit such damages are available. Due to the sensitive nature of computers and other electronically controlled equipment, the Customer, especially three-phase Customers, should provide protection against variations in supply.
- Location
- Placerville, CA, USA
- Occupation
- Retired PV System Designer
Yes, so an open neutral would simply be an open circuit. At least for single phase sites.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
The biggest difference there is most homes and small businesses are only supplied with two conductors. Open circuit in either conductor leaves you with no current at all. If multiple services are supplied by different legs of a three phase wye source, there is still some risk should the common neutral be compromised, but any break in a neutral beyond that common point is not going to leave it's supplied load in series with another phase.
There are still facilities that get supplied by three phase, and also have a lot of single phase to neutral load within.
Sean.Day72
Member
- Location
- Florida
For the sake of visual learning. As stated previously you would need to know the contact resistance of the ground rod to know what voltage level the grounded metal parts of the system would be energized to. I believe there is a calculator on this site in "free stuff" to figure this out.
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