Bath ceiling light fixture within 3 feet of tub

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you see the semantics of the interpretation definition "bathtub rim" is a real sticky subject on this forum - if the tub in the picture was not free standing having a deck extending to the wall then the fixtures would be above the tub. Or what if there was a hand held shower in this tub??? My impression of the picture is a way of thinning out the herd for those whom value architectural preferences over possible a dangerous situation. You could place a receptacle below each towel prior to the 2020 NEC & also still place a switch above those same towels according to semantics.
 
(C) Switches in Tub or Shower Spaces. Switches shall not be installed within tubs or shower spaces unless installed as part of a listed tub or shower assembly. Take back the part about switches as that are sure looks like a tub space
 
I don't think its placing architectural preferences over safety. We don't know the specifics. If this is a fiberglass tub with CPVC plumbing then a GFCI make almost no difference. Additionally someone would have to go out of their way to interface with those lights while in the tub. Could somebody get hurt? I suppose but that's true for everything electric. What's the worst most likely scenario? A person changing the lamps while taking a bath? Assuming its all fiberglass with plastic plumbing, what would GFCI add?
 
I don't think its placing architectural preferences over safety. We don't know the specifics. If this is a fiberglass tub with CPVC plumbing then a GFCI make almost no difference. Additionally someone would have to go out of their way to interface with those lights while in the tub. Could somebody get hurt? I suppose but that's true for everything electric. What's the worst most likely scenario? A person changing the lamps while taking a bath? Assuming its all fiberglass with plastic plumbing, what would GFCI add?


Mike it doesn't matter what the tub is made from... The code feels this is a none issue as the fixture has an equipment grounding conductor and the fixture is listed for the location. The tub could be a hydromassage tub and that wouldn't change a thing.
 
And in America Mike you are welcome to your opinion - a preventable single death is 1 to many
You're welcome to your opinion as well. That's a nice sentiment but that's not reality. Risks is calculated all the time. Probability vs impact. You don't have to agree that's a fact. There are many things that can be done differently that statistically may prevent one death but are not done because of the trade off. I am not advocating recklessness or saying money is more important. I am saying everything could be safer, but there is an appropriate level of safety where additional measures become more burdensome compared to the potential benefit. Otherwise every driver and passenger in America should wear a 5 point harness, a helmet, Hans device, and a fire suite. Additionally every public roadway should have soft walls instead of concrete barriers, and cars should not have the ability to go more than 65MPH. Cars should have full roll cages, and escape hatches like race cars. Why cars are manufactured with the capability of 100 MPH when no roads allow it is yet another way to prevent a death. Those changes would prevent many deaths why are they not implemented? Obviously I don't advocate that because the risk is not worth the added cost and inconvenience, but it would save at least one life and you said that's too many. That's just a sentimental line and not reality.
 
Mike it doesn't matter what the tub is made from... The code feels this is a none issue as the fixture has an equipment grounding conductor and the fixture is listed for the location. The tub could be a hydromassage tub and that wouldn't change a thing.
Yes I recognize that. My point was the installation you posted was legal and compliant. The other post states " thinning out the herd for those whom value architectural preferences over possible a dangerous situation " I don't feel that to be the case and as the code is written, its supports that view point. My other point was even adding GFCI would not make it safer. Removing the lights all together would be logically safer but does not remove the risk of someone running an extension cord from the receptacle. So there is always a line to be drawn and its reasonable to view the install you posted as safe and not prioritizing preferences over safety.
 
This is compliant as these fixtures are damp location

enhance
They are also pretty close to not being over the tub. hard to tell for certain from that point of view
 
You're welcome to your opinion as well. That's a nice sentiment but that's not reality. Risks is calculated all the time. Probability vs impact. You don't have to agree that's a fact. There are many things that can be done differently that statistically may prevent one death but are not done because of the trade off. I am not advocating recklessness or saying money is more important. I am saying everything could be safer, but there is an appropriate level of safety where additional measures become more burdensome compared to the potential benefit. Otherwise every driver and passenger in America should wear a 5 point harness, a helmet, Hans device, and a fire suite. Additionally every public roadway should have soft walls instead of concrete barriers, and cars should not have the ability to go more than 65MPH. Cars should have full roll cages, and escape hatches like race cars. Why cars are manufactured with the capability of 100 MPH when no roads allow it is yet another way to prevent a death. Those changes would prevent many deaths why are they not implemented? Obviously I don't advocate that because the risk is not worth the added cost and inconvenience, but it would save at least one life and you said that's too many. That's just a sentimental line and not reality.
I don't even know how to respond, you deserve some sort of award for this kind of writing though.
 
Correct 410.10

(D) Bathtub and Shower Areas. No parts of cord-connected
luminaires, chain-, cable-, or cord-suspended luminaires, lighting
track, pendants, or ceiling-suspended (paddle) fans shall be
located within a zone measured 900 mm (3 ft) horizontally and
2.5 m (8 ft) vertically from the top of the bathtub rim or
shower stall threshold. This zone is all encompassing and
includes the space directly over the tub or shower stall. Luminaires
located within the actual outside dimension of the bathtub
or shower to a height of 2.5 m (8 ft) vertically from the top
of the bathtub rim or shower threshold shall be marked for
damp locations, or marked for wet locations where subject to
shower spray.

It does not give a min but it does say anything in there needs to be marked for damp or wet locations.
There was a change for 2020.


2020 Language:

410.10(D) Bathtub and Shower Areas.
A luminaire installed in a bathtub or shower area shall meet all of the following requirements:

N (1) No parts of cord-connected luminaires, chain-, cable-, or cord-suspended luminaires, lighting track, pendants, or ceiling-suspended (paddle) fans shall be located within a zone measured 900 mm (3 ft) horizontally and 2.5 m (8 ft) vertically from the top of the bathtub rim or shower stall threshold. This zone is all-encompassing and includes the space directly over the tub or shower stall.

N (2) Luminaires located within the actual outside dimension of the bathtub or shower to a height of 2.5 m (8 ft) vertically from the top of the bathtub rim or shower threshold shall be marked suitable for damp locations or marked suitable for wet locations. Luminaires located where subject to shower spray shall be marked suitable for wet locations.
Rewritten, but don't really look like any changes in overall requirements.
 
As far as I know, nothing in the code says "flush" when referencing lights

We're stuck choosing between recessed and surface.

But the difference between surface and flush is in how it mounts. There isn't anything allowing a chandelier to mount to a surface.. It has to mount to a box that's in turn mounted. A chandeluer is also not recessed. The supporting bracket of a chandelier mounts flush with the surface.

The OP is asking about a "surface mount" light and in the same breath mentions "hanging"

I don't think he meant surface mount
Yes there basically is just recessed and surface mounted. But surface mounted can include types mentioned in the code quoted in posts 2 and 3 that also incorporate cords, chains, and suspended components off those mentioned items, vs some basic, rigid, close to ceiling types. Those are allowed in the zone and must also be damp or even wet rated if directly over the tub/shower.
 
Yes there basically is just recessed and surface mounted. But surface mounted can include types mentioned in the code quoted in posts 2 and 3 that also incorporate cords, chains, and suspended components off those mentioned items, vs some basic, rigid, close to ceiling types. Those are allowed in the zone and must also be damp or even wet rated if directly over the tub/shower.
Surface mount only includes that which gets mounted to the surface. I don't know why it's got to be like pulling teeth to get people to understand that. It all hangs on the word "mount"

Does It screw to the drywall? Then it is surface mount. Does It screw to a finished block wall? Then it is surface mount. Does this screw to some wood paneling? Then it is surface mount.

It doesn't matter the size, the shape, or anything like that. It matters where it mounts. And there isn't any chandelier I've ever seen that mounts to a drywall ceiling. They mount to a box, that is in turn "flush" with the drywall.
 
Surface mount only includes that which gets mounted to the surface. I don't know why it's got to be like pulling teeth to get people to understand that. It all hangs on the word "mount"

Does It screw to the drywall? Then it is surface mount. Does It screw to a finished block wall? Then it is surface mount. Does this screw to some wood paneling? Then it is surface mount.

It doesn't matter the size, the shape, or anything like that. It matters where it mounts. And there isn't any chandelier I've ever seen that mounts to a drywall ceiling. They mount to a box, that is in turn "flush" with the drywall.
But the light is not "flush" with the drywall, thus it is "surface" mounted.
 
The only time that I know an exhaust fan has to be GFCI protected is when the mfg states it should. Most say that to CYA.
Here’s another example of manufactures making money, BR receptacle required to be gfi is more than a joke, what’s next, receptacles next to windows?
 

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Here’s another example of manufactures making money, BR receptacle required to be gfi is more than a joke, what’s next, receptacles next to windows?
I think they mostly wanted receptacles inside cabinets within 6 feet of a sink to be GFCI protected, their choice of words made it include more than just that.
 
But the light is not "flush" with the drywall, thus it is "surface" mounted.
The light doesn't have to be flush, only the mounting apparatus. That's why the word "mount" is used.

Just like a flush mount receptacle and plate is on the surface of the drywall. But it mounts to a box that's flush with the surface.
 
James no disrespect but I don't know where you are getting this info. Almost all fixtures in your scenario would be flush. This, imo is not the case
 
The light doesn't have to be flush, only the mounting apparatus. That's why the word "mount" is used.

Just like a flush mount receptacle and plate is on the surface of the drywall. But it mounts to a box that's flush with the surface.
for application of 410.10(D) the words flush and surface don't appear within the code section anyway, it just prohibits use of cord-connected luminaires, chain-, cable-, or cord-suspended luminaires, lighting track, pendants, or ceiling-suspended (paddle) fans .
 
IMESHO: Flush is flat with the surface and recessed is the same.
Surface the whole fixture is on top of the surface.
Pendant hangs off the surface.
You can call it whatever you want but that's how I define it.
 
It's interesting that every manufacturer shows flush and semi-flush fixtures along with pendant as choices. Of course, there is also wall sconces and recessed.


Semi- Flush and Flush

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54x85
 
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