bath tub spa

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and this ,... if any care ,.. is 17-152

17-152 Log #1524 NEC-P17
(680-74)
Final Action: Reject
Submitter: Gary Siggins, Underwriters Laboratories Inc.
Recommendation:
Delete from 680.74 the following text: "and providing a means for grounding internal nonaccessible, non-current carrying metal
parts."
Substantiation:
The bonding exception for equipment with an approved system of double insulation if they ground internal nonaccessible, non-current
carrying metal parts is the same as for swimming pool pumps. The pump designs are different. Double insulted hydromassage bathtub
pumps utilize double insulated motors where swimming pool pumps utilize grounded motors with outer plastic covers. Also a
hydromassage bathtub pump is not accessible to the tub occupant. Forcing them to ground the pump would violate the requirements
used to evaluate the motors in UL 1097, "Double Insulation Systems for Use in Electrical Equipment."
Panel Meeting Action: Reject
Panel Statement:
See the submitter's substantiation on Proposal 17-153. The panel believes that a field installed double insulated motor equipped with
a three-wire cord incorporating an equipment grounding conductor provides an increased level of safety.
Number Eligible to Vote: 11
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 11
1597



This ,.. taken from (17-183) the action that lead to the 2005 floors me,... "consicely reworded"?? are they kidding ??

Section 680.74 has been concisely reworded
to require the bonding of only the parts that present a risk of creating voltage
gradients in the hydromassage bathtub.
Click to expand...
 
Here is the accepted 2008 language:
680.74 Bonding. All metal piping systems and all grounded metal parts in contact with the circulating water shall be bonded together using a solid copper bonding jumper, insulated, covered, or bare, not smaller than 8 AWG. The bonding jumper shall be connected to the terminal on the circulating pump motor that is intended for this purpose. The bonding jumper shall not be required to be connected to a double insulated circulating pump motor. The 8 AWG or larger solid copper bonding jumper shall be required for equipotential bonding in the area of the hydro?masage bathtub and shall not be required to be extended or attached to any remote panelboard, service equipment, or any electrode.
Click to expand...

The two changes are: moving the word solid to the front of the sentance (one of my proposals :D) and the addition of the last three sentances.
 
Let's disconnect "all metal piping systems" from "circulating water" for a moment. Since the NEC concerns each premises wiring system, shall we assume that "all metal piping systems" is premises wide? If there is a metal piping system two rooms away, then do we connect our hydro tub to that? :D

I think an answer we can all agree on to that question is: No.

If the circulating water is not relevant to the metal piping system in question, then this requirement is vague and unenforceable. How far do we need to look for a piping system? Six feet? Twelve?

I think a better question is, what are we protecting against? The panel states it is to defend against voltage gradients in the hydro tub.

If there are earthed conductive surfaces within reach of the user of the tub, that are not covered by 680.74, then the section accomplishes nothing. Example:

The motor experiences a fault, and the EGC trips the circuit breaker - whoops, I need to get rid of the EGC to get this example to work, back up:

The motor experiences a fault, and energizes the metal nozzles and the metal handles of the tub. The user rests their hand on the metal window sill beside them, and the GFCI trips - whoops, I need to axe the GFCI, hang on... :D

I do not see the effectiveness or the use of this requirement, in any case. It makes the most sense to say that the metal nozzles that a user can touch have to be connected to that motor, because that motor is connected to an effective ground fault return path.

They may state that it's an attempt at equipotential bonding, but it is a very pale shade compared to the very thorough 680.26 requirements. Any conductive metal can be all but sitting in the tub with the user, and we are not required to e-bond to it. That is not equipotential bonding, that's wasting ink, IMO.

So, getting back to where I began, if they intend for us to connect to all metal piping systems period then they should be more specific. I like my version better. :D
 
georgestolz said:
So, getting back to where I began, if they intend for us to connect to all metal piping systems period then they should be more specific. I like my version better. :D
Click to expand...


Me too!:D :D :D
 
If the only metal piping system they wanted bonded was the recirculating piping system why wouldn't they write this way.

All metal recirculating piping systems and grounded metal parts in contact with the circulating water shall be,....


The statement All metal piping systems is not concise ,.. unless the only thing contemplated is the tub itself which is equipped with a recirculating piping system as defined .
 
I am not sure that we will ever agree on this, however, if the code wanted the metal piping system to be bonding even if it were not in contact with the circulating water then they would have put a simple comma after "All metal piping systems, AND all grounded metal parts--- the way it is written (without the comma) can only mean the water piping system must be in contact with the cir. water
 
How many piping systems can be in contact with the circulating water ??
This article is poorly written.
 
Ok I have a ? then,,,I have a jet tub Im wiring supplied with a 20 amp ckt. Plastic water lines through out the home, even supplied with plastic. Ok next, Metal housing on the motor with a lug for #8. My partner says that art 680.43 E # (3) apply. Now I disagreed with this , but cant find a ref to back me up. So He ran a #8 Back to the panel for bonding purposes. I believe that we can use the # 12 in the romex to bond the motor, after all there are no metal water pipes in the house, and the only gas pipe is in the garage..

Let me know what you guys think ,,, Thanks in advance

TC:confused: :confused:
 
Is this a hydromassage tub?? 680.43 pertains to spas and hot tubs located indoors.

I would read the installation instructions ,... then decide if they were considered as part of the listing of the equipment, then decide if you are going to follow them ,.. I would most likely follow them.
 
Its a jet tub in the master bath room . around 5 feet oval shaped. Im gonna read the inst. today and check. # 8 just seems a little excessive for a freakin bathtub. Ill check ,,thanks guys
 
Mr. Timothy Curtis said:
Plastic water lines through out the home, even supplied with plastic.
Click to expand...

That statement right there tells me that you need not do anything. You only need to bond if you have a metal piping system. You do not.

Furthermore, you never need to run a bonding junper back to the panel.
 
M. D. said:
Ryan would 110.3(b) not apply??

http://jacuzzi.com/pdf/K339000.PDF?SELINSTMANS=K339000.PDF&goinst.x=13&goinst.y=9


The date on this instruction sheet is 3/06
Click to expand...

You could argue that the instructions are part of the listing, which is something that UL has claimed before. However, like Don always says, they can't have it both ways. They tell you the instructionsmust be followed (like when a GE panel says "use only GE breakers"), but then they list products that violate those instructions (like non GE breakers that are listed and "classified" to be used in GE panels)!

So, long story made short, I don't spend a lot of time reading manufacturer's instructions, particularly when they say nonsensical things like "bond this to the panel", or they include instructions that tell you to buy more of their products!
 
So from what I gather, I can use the # 12 in the branch ckt to bond the motor housing, correct? I cannot find a suitable code for my justification in this so Ill ask the inspector when he comes out today. Thanks gentelmen
 
Ryan, I can't find any thing that supports ignoring the installation instructions.

Though I respect Don's opinion ,.. he seems to be alone in it.
 
Manufacturer?s installation instructions ?recommendations.? Some manufacturer?s installation instructions include ?recommendations? that are not required by the NEC? or other Model Code. How does UL view such ?recommendations?? Specifically, for a hydromassage bathtub, the NEC? requires accessibility. A manufacturer?s installation instructions recommend a certain sized opening for such accessibility, but don?t say that it is mandatory. Instructions for smoke alarms ?recommend? a detector in every room, which is not required by building or fire codes. Does the AHJ have the authority to ask for the installation instructions? Is UL doing anything to standardize the terminology that installation instructions use?

Installation instructions provided with UL Listed products are reviewed as part of the Listing investigation. Manufacturer?s recommendations that are part of the installation instructions should be followed in order to comply with NEC? Section 110.3(B). The AHJ should expect all installation instructions provided with UL Listed equipment to be available for review at the time of inspection.
If an AHJ believes that the manufacturer?s recommendations in the installation instructions exceed what is necessary for a safe installation; then NEC? Section 90.4 gives the AHJ the prerogative to approve the installation.
More than one Model Code regulates many different installations in the built environment. Smoke alarms are an excellent example of this, since multiple Model Codes address requirements for their installation; including the International Residential Code? (IRC?) and NFPA 72, the National Fire Alarm Code?. When this situation exists, the installation instructions will then reflect the installation requirements found in each of the governing Codes.
If an AHJ believes that a product?s installation instructions conflict with the NEC? or other Model Code, please contact a Regulatory Services staff member at 1-800-595-9844.
REPORT ON DISCUSSIONS
DURING UL MEETINGS
WITH ELECTRICAL INSPECTORS
AT THE
2006 IAEI SECTION MEETING
Click to expand...

This document has more examples that suggest that ignoring the instructions would be inconsistent with the listing requirement. If Don , or any one else has an issue with the classification of breakers they should voice their concerns to the Regulatory Service
 
I have closed two threads similar to this one:

Whirlpool Tub Bond Lug and Another Jacuzzi Tub Question.

The discussion of the conflict between UL listing of panelboards and classified breakers took place in the first thread linked to above, so if anybody's not up to speed on what M.D. is referring to, they can go take a look.

I'm only closing the other threads because I feel it's easier to have this discussion in one spot, the same discussion has happened in several different spots over the past week or so, it can make participating a little more difficult.
 
Hmm can't get my pic to come up.. Oh well Was just installing one yesterday and took pictures of this brands installation instruction and it is requireing that it be bonded.
 
Electrostatic charge?

Electrostatic charge?

Sir: I can see your reasoning. However, water running through a plastic pipe can generate some very high static potentials. Could it be, that this is the reason for the bonding?
 
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