Bathroom 20amp ckts

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I'm not going to defend this one with any degree of vigor. I suppose that if you focus on the word "the," as in "supply the. . . outlets," you could infer that the intent was to make it all inclusive. As I said, I think the authors intended us to use only 20 amp circuits for bathroom receptacles.
 
My point, a simple one really, is that the whole of the 210.11 section applies ONLY to required branch circuits...something that seems obvious because its titled "Branch Circuits Required".
 
:oops: :oops: :oops:
dlhoule wrote:
Doesn't that depend on the countertop. If you have a 10' countertop with a small basin in the center, wouldn't that require a minimun of 3 outlets? 1 on each side of basin & 1 in adjacent wall.

I posted that before I read previous discussion on this matter. I was thinking adjacent wall was perpendicular to countertop.

Did we ever come up with a definitive answer on vanity installed in bedroom?
 
A similar discussion (regarding the bathroom's friendly neighbor to the north of the page) about the required laundry circuit can be found here.

IMO, the required receptacles are to be on the 20 amp required circuit. Once this is satisfied, you can wallpaper the bathroom with 15 amp receptacles to your heart's content.

The NEC places no restrictions on non-required receptacles.
 
Only a vanity in a bedroom shouldn't "require" anything special (other than ordinary 12' spacings in a bedroom) -- its not a "bathroom" per the article 100 definition.
 
This question is about bathroom branch circuit requirement.
210.11(C)(3)In addition to the number of branch circuits rquired by other parts of this section, at least one 20-ampere branch circuit shall be provided to supply bathroom receptacle outlet(s).

By the fact that it says AT LEAST ONE 20-ampere branch circuit shall be provided... tells me additional 20 ampere circuits can be installed, but only one is required. I believe in this situation that (same as kitchens ;)) if a 15 amp circuit for receptacles would be permitted, that it would say so.
 
Andrew. now I know why we see this happen in Lee County and we have to turn it down. And trun it down we do. 20 amp circuits in all the bath recepticals and must be on GFI. Even the toe kick lights if they are pluged in. Charlotte and Sarasota Countys also inforce this.
 
pierre said:
I believe in this situation that (same as kitchens ;)) if a 15 amp circuit for receptacles would be permitted, that it would say so.
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There's one phenomenal difference between kitchens and bathrooms: 210.52(B)(1).
(1) Receptacle Outlets Served. In the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall and floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A), all counter-top outlets covered by 210.52(C), and receptacle outlets for refrigeration equipment.
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Here is where we have the mandatory rule requiring our required circuit to serve all receptacles in the defined areas. There is no such language for the bathroom.

I notice that 210.52(D) is written differently, not mentioning the required circuit. As is (F). Nevertheless, as the NEC is a permissive document, given the explicit instruction in 210.52(B) for one of the required set of circuits, I do not believe the intent was to make every receptacle in the bathroom to be required to be on the required circuit.

The NEC only expects you to install the required receptacles. So when they refer to "the bathroom receptacle outlets", who would "they" be? The required ones, IMO.

Where is the hazard in having a 15 amp circuit supplying a (GFCI protected, per 210.8.) receptacle inside a cabinet on a switch for toe-kick rope lights? As long as 210.23 is followed, there should be no hazard.

edit to lose the shades and get my code reference back! :D
 
Andrew
You must use 12-2w/g to supply your bathroom receptical. I like to keep all my recept on 20a circuits. Lights and smokes on 15a. :D
 
George, in my opinion, 210.52(D) doesn't mention the required branch circuit because there is no need to reference it. In the case of the Small-Appliance Branch Circuits, they supply outlets in the kitchen, pantry, dining room, breakfast nook etc. 210.11(C)(1) alerts us to the fact that the Small-Appliance Branch Circuits are to serve the outlets specified in 210.52(B). No such detail is needed in 210.52(D) because 210.11(C)(3) has already told us that bathroom branch circuits which supply receptacle outlets are 20 ampere circuits. I think by the very fact that it doesn't mention "the required outlets" it's meant to include all the outlets installed. As I stated earlier, I don't see how 210.11(C)(3) could be seen as not being all-inclusive.

georgestolz said:
Where is the hazard in having a 15 amp circuit supplying a (GFCI protected, per 210.8.) receptacle inside a cabinet on a switch for toe-kick rope lights? As long as 210.23 is followed, there should be no hazard.
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I didn't think there was a hazard when they changed the requirement and made the bathroom receptacle circuit 20 ampere. The worst thing that can happen with a properly installed 15 ampere circuit is that it won't be large enough to handle the connected load. But that's what's required.
 
If the bathroom allows 60 ft of counter top and there is one basin then only one is required ,also if there are 2 basins and the receptacle is placed between the basins as long as within 3 ft of each basin only one duplex receptacle is needed.In tract homes it is common place to feed the nearest basin to the panel with a 20 amp circuit and daisy chain from there.In customs I feed the master by itself 20 amp stay within that bath room and all other baths are daisy chained 20 amp .As far as 15 amp receptacle circuits in a bathroom why even consider it.any inspectors I know would look and say what the _ _ _ _ :lol:
 
If there's a shelf up on the wall where there's going to be a stereo or lava lamp, why waste money on heavier wire for light loads like that?

This is the same reason why I've taken to putting a 15A receptical up on the wall over the fridge space in a kitchen. The cabinets over fridges are virtually useless and the fridge top winds up collecting radios or small TV's. It prevents cords from being dangled across the counter tops and puts a receptical where people can actually use one. The same branch can serve one of the outside recepticals.
 
Here is a related question. If I am wiring a kitchen with a penninsula and I have already met the required minimum of two small appliance circuits for the countertops and I run a third (20amps) one to the penninsula, can the third circuit supply any receptacles outside of the kitchen or dining area, like say the living room?
 
mvannevel, I think we've got a dose of bad code here.
(C) Dwelling Units.
(1) Small-Appliance Branch Circuits. In addition to the
number of branch circuits required by other parts of this
section, two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch cir-cuits
shall be provided for all receptacle outlets specified by
210.52(B).
(2) Laundry Branch Circuits. In addition to the number
of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, at
least one additional 20-ampere branch circuit shall be pro-vided
to supply the laundry receptacle outlet(s) required by
210.52(F). This circuit shall have no other outlets.
(3) Bathroom Branch Circuits. In addition to the number
of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, at
least one 20-ampere branch circuit shall be provided to
supply bathroom receptacle outlet(s). Such circuits shall
have no other outlets.
Click to expand...
Doesn't it seem as though they got successively lazier as time went by? :?

Why are bathrooms more holy than laundry and kitchens? I seriously doubt that was intentional.

It can be read either way. In lieu of a solid prohibition or mandate, a 15 amp circuit should be permitted, IMO.
 
It seems to me this is a double edged sword.It my not be mandated that it must be on a 20 amp circuit(after required are met)As well as it is mandated that the Required receptacles are to be 20 amp.I would like to see you convince your AHJ that it is ok to use 15 amp receptacle circuits in a bath room and if you did pass further inspections without a scrutinizing eye that at that point you have a P _ _ _ _ D off AHJ at your attempt to coerse the NEC to the letter of the law so to speak.Here is one thing but in the real world of day to day reality takes hold.
 
tonyi said:
If there's a shelf up on the wall where there's going to be a stereo or lava lamp, why waste money on heavier wire for light loads like that?

This is the same reason why I've taken to putting a 15A receptical up on the wall over the fridge space in a kitchen. The cabinets over fridges are virtually useless and the fridge top winds up collecting radios or small TV's. It prevents cords from being dangled across the counter tops and puts a receptical where people can actually use one. The same branch can serve one of the outside recepticals.
Click to expand...

Yes don't waste money.Simply install another outlet above the one for the frig and use that 3 foot scrap up.
 
allenwayne said:
I would like to see you convince your AHJ that it is ok to use 15 amp receptacle circuits in a bath room and if you did pass further inspections without a scrutinizing eye....
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Fortunately, some inspectors use 90.4 to exercise some common sense. I've performed this very installation before (a few times) and noone thought much of the lighting receptacle inside the cabinet.

And it's not exactly 'approval due to not being noticed', as at the rough 14-2 stands out like a sore thumb in a bathroom.

A receptacle on a photoeye and a switch to serve toekick lights, installed inside a cabinet have a plain purpose evident. Should someone go against that evident purpose, and plug in a hair dryer and overload that circuit, the circuit breaker should trip. Then perhaps they should return to using the receptacle that was required by code to be present to perform the task.

Edit to add: So, on the flip side of the coin, those who would have every receptacle on the required 20 amp circuit would prefer to guarantee a fixed load on that circuit, as opposed to intentionally keeping it 100% free for unknown cord-connected loads? That doesn't seem like a very effective design, does it? :?
 
I've got to agree with you George, it does seem like a dose of bad code writing.
georgestolz said:
Doesn't it seem as though they got successively lazier as time went by?
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Unfortunately, we don't know if that's the case or they intended all of the receptacles to be on 20 ampere circuits. I've always interpreted it to mean that only 20 amp circuits supply bathroom receptacles. And actually, other than the occasional homeowner, I don't see 15 ampere receptacle circuits in bathrooms around here.

Several years ago at an IAEI meeting, Phil Cox was explaining that after the CMP's get the language the way they want it, the document is turned over to the lawyers for "tweaking". He said that oftentimes their sublte "tweaking" of the wording changes the intended meaning of the code section. Maybe that's the case here, maybe it's just lazy writing, or maybe that's what they intended. Only they know for sure.
 
(3) Bathroom Branch Circuits. In addition to the number
of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, at
least one 20-ampere branch circuit shall be provided to
supply bathroom receptacle outlet(s). Such circuits shall
have no other outlets.
Click to expand...

I feel that this means all bathroom receptacles. It doesn't state "all required receptacles..."

With that said, I don't feel that it was the intent when written, nor do I feel that it is necessarily a better design.

I think those who feel that a 15 amp receptacle in a bathroom is code compliant are using too much common sense. :wink:
 
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