Bathroom light fed with #14

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I think yet another angle you could look at would be using table 402.5 "Allowable Ampacity for Fixture Wires". In this table a #14 has an allowable ampacity of 17 amps. So for the sake of using the arguement that the 14/2 romex was a fixture wire (which I too agree it is in fact branch circuit wiring), then being protected by a 20 amp circuit would still exceed the value in this table thus again flagging a violation. IMHO, this one is just not worth fighting over with the inspector and in the long run you would be far better off just swapping it out.
 
wicked1 said:
fixture wire that comes with fixture is approved under different rules and is rated for different use and temperature, you installed #14 gauge wire rated for 75C and 15A, the fixture didn't come with 14 gauge NMD. Why not change the breaker to 15A and solve the problem easy.
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Well, this would not in fact be a suitable solution since 210.11 (C)(3) states that the bathroom circuit is to be a 20 amp circuit.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
Rough Night tonite Celtic... Not like you,
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I think I'm having a bad week ...something is off, and I think it's me.


Dennis Alwon said:
I think MD is saying since the 14/2 is not part of the fixture that is the first clue that it is not a fixture tap. I think.
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I think so too...but I read conflicting replies. (see the triple quoted post #39)...hoping I missed the sarcasm in the translation from mind to internet...I do love sarcam LOL.


Dennis Alwon said:
I believe MD was trying to clarify his believe that Trevor was off on his thinking.
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That much I understood...LOL....yeah, something is definitley off over here.
 
celtic said:
HUH??



That's not a fixture wire, that's a branch circuit.

I am totally confused M.D.
I know what your position is (14/2 is not legal) and I do agree, but unless I missed the sarcasm ~ HUH???
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You asked what a fixture wire was and it seems to me it is the wiring that is part of the fixture that connects to the branch circuit wiring . Trevor installed branch circuit wiring not fixture taps or wires .

Are you trying to say that what Trevor installed at the time of the rough in were fixture wires??
 
infinity said:
Well, we were cleaning out a pile of old wire and came across some #12 NM that had a white jacket (now we always use the yellow stuff). We used it up in the bathroom. Turns out that one piece, the one going to the fixture was #14. I made the executive decision to leave it based on my argument the 4' of #14 is a fixture tap. No different than a 6' fixture whip with #14 conductors protected at 20 amps. His argument, #14=15 amp OCPD. Jury is still out while he checks it out. Opinions?
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It is a violation IMO. #14 not allowed to be fused higher than 15 amp. I have been put in situations where customer load called for 20amp breaker on 15amp branch circuit, but I talked myself into it based on the fact that wire is actually rated for 20amps. (I was finishing a house right at Christmas time several years ago and a foyer lighting circuit was tripping the breaker. I knew I had laid it out with room to spare, so I was confused. I finally went to the panel with a meter and asked helper to unplug the power strip at the Christmas tree. Amperage went from 19 to 8. I figured temporary high amperage would be okay. Wrong breaker, but....:confused: )
 
M. D. said:
You asked what a fixture wire was and it seems to me it is the wiring that is part of the fixture that connects to the branch circuit wiring . Trevor installed branch circuit wiring not fixture taps or wires .
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Awesome...whatever ails me is apparently contagious and now M.D. has it too.
:grin:

I asked " Isn't the wire going to the fixture part of the branch circuit?" (#26),
and added an edit in there to address Don's 240.5(B)(2)(2) post ( #24 ).
With a follow-up question: " If the wires are not Chapter 300 wiring methods, does 240.5 apply?"( #28 )

This is where, I think things got all messed up....

M.D. relied - and I condensed it all in the magnificent triple quote post (#39 )

....and went steadily downhill from there.
I don't think we were "in synch" here.

But to answer your question M.D.:
M. D. said:
Are you trying to say that what Trevor installed at the time of the rough in were fixture wires??
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celtic said:
I know what your position is (14/2 is not legal) and I do agree..
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(from #39 )

So I think we may be in synch again ....but be careful, rumor has it that I may have cooties.
 
After pouring through the 5 pages of this post I have decided to just replace the 4' of NM cable. Now I am seeing that the rules for fixture wires wouldn't apply to my 4' of NM cable therefore my argument is without merit.

Just to comment on some of the other issues in this thread, fixture whips are not required to be made as part of a listed assembly by the fixture manufacturer. For those of us who have been around a long time we can remember when fixtures came without whips and they were field assembled from 3/8 FMC and wire. As far as I know this is still permitted as it was 20+ years ago.

Regarding table 402.5 the allowable ampacity table is for the load on those fixture wires not the OCPD on the branch circuit. This is the reason why we see #18 fixture wires permitted on 20 amp circuits. A #18 fixture whip can be loaded up to 6 amps as outlined in 402.5.

Thanks for all of the comments. I missed the boat on this one.:rolleyes:
 
Celtic , I 'm sorry for any confusion I may have added to this thread , I understand what your position is, and I'm glad the #14 is being replaced.
 
georgestolz said:
As for all the confusion, I can only simply state that the problem is at the pole, you know a motorcycle doesn't have any doors.
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I learn something new everyday here...thank God it's still early LOL :D
 
Not fair, not fair. :mad: The discussion is over before I even get a chance to show off my brilliance. ;) All I will say now is that I agree; I’m not even going to say who I agree with. :grin: :grin:

But I do have one minor point to mention. Not having installed fixture wire myself, I might be wrong here. But I envision fixture wire as being loose within the body of the luminaire. Not quite, but nearly in open air. The ampacity of a wire is higher in open air, because it can more easily reject heat to its surroundings. I suspect that something along these lines is the reason that we can use smaller conductors as fixture wires.

The “15 amp protection for #14 copper wires” requirement in 240.4(D) does not apply to fixture wires. Thus, a 20 amp breaker can successfully protect a #14 conductor, if that conductor is a fixture wire, and if its “conditions of use” give it an ampacity of 17 amps. 20 is the next higher breaker size.
 
peter d said:
Code violation? Yes.

Dangerous? Not really.

Likely to cause a fire? Highly unlikely.
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My feeling exactly. If this were a 3/8" FMC fixture whip with #18 fixture wire it would be code compliant. #14 NM not code compliant. Which one is really safer?
 
infinity said:
My feeling exactly. If this were a 3/8" FMC fixture whip with #18 fixture wire it would be code compliant. #14 NM not code compliant. Which one is really safer?
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So then you can support running a fixture whip from the fixture down the wall to a wall switch, let's say in 18 gauge wire?????

I agree it seems silly but we have to remember that there are lots of individuals that read this forum that can get the impression that we are making light of the situation.

I do understand what you are saying, but it is illegal and we need to make sure that's understood and there is reasoning behind it.

The issue is not whether your installation will cause a problem but its more what happens after you leave.

Worse yet--- suppose your switch was the last item on your circuit. Now can we run 15 gauge feed to the switch box?, hell it's only say 3' from the receptacle. That basically makes it one long switch leg. I know you would not do that and you know why you wouldn't.

I'll leave it at that.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
So then you can support running a fixture whip from the fixture down the wall to a wall switch, let's say in 18 gauge wire?????


I do understand what you are saying, but it is illegal and we need to make sure that's understood and there is reasoning behind it.
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What I am saying is that it is legal to supply a fixture with a fixture whip containing #18 conductors. Would I do it in this application? No, but I don't see where it's prohibited.
 
My books in the van and its snowing bad, but isn't there a code that says you can tap a 20 amp circuit with 14 ga. if its under 18inches?
 
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