Bathroom receptacles (again)

[bikeindy]

my point is ... what is your point ... obviously the bathrooms you've seen in the last 5 years were done "WRONG" ... how many of these did you do ... would also like to know , what are these ""OTHER BATHROOMS" you keep refering to ... when you find a 99 code book and quote 'whatever' article you 'think you read,' then I will humbly apologize but until then ... a bathroom is a bathroom is a bathroom is a ....

I asked this once before ... did you take your Contractor test the same day you got your Journeymans ticket ... you don't seem to have a whole lot of experience at this ... BTW ... do you have "Streamers" on your Bike ... Mines an "FXDS" ...


for ..."Striving to be the best Electrical contractor in Indianapolis." ... you sure make me not want to live there ... M

EXCUSE ME!

You are way out of line here! I never stated that we were doing bathroom receptacles on 15 Amp circuits.. my reference to your bathroom is a bathroom comment is that no they are not just bathrooms I have been in some bathrooms that could double as a dwelling unit. I know where the code is concerned a bathroom is a bathroom I didn't need your comment to know that. My question goes to the point that at one point 15 Amp circuits were alowed for bathroom receptacles and was wondering when it changed, since there are homes here that were built after 1999 and have 15 amp circuits for bathroom receptacles. they may be wrong but that is not work I did. My other point is that I find it a little silly to have a 20 Amp circuit in a little bathroom in a basement that will most likely never be used. I know what I have to do I just think it is over kill. Wether tieing into an exsisting 20 Amp or running a new from the panel is just more work than is really nessasary IMO for a little bathroom. I do it and get paid for it, I was just making a comment about it.

 

[bikeindy]

The problem lies with where you wish to be an EC.Some places only require an occupational license and you are in buisness.Also have ran into many even here in FL that took the test many many years ago and have not kept up with changes from cycle to cycle.I suggest he reads all of 210 for a start.

That is not the case here. And Jim it only takes about 5 minutes to read and understand 210. I wasn't looking for an answer to if I need to do all bathrooms on a 20 Amp circuit I know I do. I was looking for an answer to when the requirment came that bathrooms had to be on 20 Amp and thought that there was a provision in the 99 code for "other bathrooms" bathrooms that were not the main bathroom. If you don't know the answer thats fine. further than that I was making comments that go to the point that I don't really think all bathroom receptacles really need to be on a 20 amp circuit. I am sure that a problem would arise in that who decides which bathroom get a 20 and which doesn't. I'd like to see an exception to 210.11(C)(3) that stated something like "Bathrooms that are smaller that 50 SF and do not serve as the primary bathroom to the dwelling are not required to have 20 ampere circuits supplying that bathrooms receptacal."

 

[77401]

Hey Indy
FWIW local code requirements here do not allow any 14awg wire PERIOD
All circuits must be 20 amp.

 

[bikeindy]

Hey Indy
FWIW local code requirements here do not allow any 14awg wire PERIOD
All circuits must be 20 amp.

I have heard that some places were like that you could put the 12-2 on a 15 amp breaker though or is that forbidden too. I think that is overkill but to each their own.

 

[celtic]

I have heard that some places were like that. I think that is overkill but to each their own.

How else can the powers that be protect the DIYers from killing themselves?

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

That is not the case here. And Jim it only takes about 5 minutes to read and understand 210. I wasn't looking for an answer to if I need to do all bathrooms on a 20 Amp circuit I know I do. I was looking for an answer to when the requirment came that bathrooms had to be on 20 Amp and thought that there was a provision in the 99 code for "other bathrooms" bathrooms that were not the main bathroom. If you don't know the answer thats fine. further than that I was making comments that go to the point that I don't really think all bathroom receptacles really need to be on a 20 amp circuit. I am sure that a problem would arise in that who decides which bathroom get a 20 and which doesn't. I'd like to see an exception to 210.11(C)(3) that stated something like "Bathrooms that are smaller that 50 SF and do not serve as the primary bathroom to the dwelling are not required to have 20 ampere circuits supplying that bathrooms receptacal."

A bathroom with a toilet and basin only still needs that 20 amper.This is a bit crazy as nobody would be using a hair dryer or anything else in this half bath.Perhaps an exception would be smart.The year this changed i am not sure of but 02 requires it.

 

[mario]

...... Wether tieing into an exsisting 20 Amp or running a new from the panel is just more work than is really nessasary IMO for a little bathroom.

(3) Bathroom Branch Circuits In addition to the number of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, at least one 20-ampere branch circuit shall be provided to supply bathroom receptacle outlet(s). Such circuits shall have no other outlets.

I sure hope you tied into a circuit from one of those "Other Bathrooms" ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by 77401
Hey Indy
FWIW local code requirements here do not allow any 14awg wire PERIOD
All circuits must be 20 amp.


I have heard that some places were like that you could put the 12-2 on a 15 amp breaker though or is that forbidden too. I think that is overkill but to each their own.

I read "20 amp 'circuits' " ... I guess your 15 amp breaker would be WRONG ...
besides, 15 and 20 amp breakers usually cost the same, why would you use the 15 ...

...... I'd like to see an exception to 210.11(C)(3) that stated something like "Bathrooms that are smaller that 50 SF and do not serve as the primary bathroom to the dwelling are not required to have 20 ampere circuits supplying that bathrooms receptacal."

will you also make it illegal to use a hair dryer and curling iron in these bathrooms ....

ok Ill ask straight out indy ... how long have you been a Journeyman ...

have a great day everybody ... I know I will ... M

 

[77401]

Actually I'm in the greater Houston Area, but one small town, Bellaire, has their own codes to be even safer/tougher.
Years ago they allowed 14-2 only for switchlegs if it was not a motor.
Now its all 12awg & 20 amp breakers ONLY but then they also require sprinkler systems in 2 story residential houses.
All this adds to the cost of new construction but the boom in Bellaire is still going on because of the location to Downtown the Med center & the public schools.

 

[kbsparky]

EXCUSE ME!

.... My question goes to the point that at one point 15 Amp circuits were alowed for bathroom receptacles and was wondering when it changed, since there are homes here that were built after 1999 and have 15 amp circuits for bathroom receptacles.....

Since no one else seems to want to answer your question, I'll take a stab at it: It was the 1996 edition of the NEC that started to require 20 Amp circuits for the bathroom receptacles ---->

I'll start with the pertinent text of the 1993 NEC thus:

210-52(d) Bathrooms. In dwelling units, at least one wall receptacle shall be installed in the bathroom adjacent to each basin location...

The 1996 edition reads slightly different:

210-52(d) Bathrooms. In dwelling units, at least one wall receptacle shall be installed in the bathroom adjacent to each basin location. Bathroom receptacle outlets shall be supplied by at least one 20-ampere branch circuit. Such circuits shall have no other outlets....

Reading from the 1999 NEC, you will find the 20 Amp requirement missing:

210-52(d) Bathrooms. In dwelling units, at least one wall receptacle shall be installed in bathrooms within 36 in (914 mm) of the outside edge of each basin. The receptacle outlet shall be located on a wall that is adjacent to the basin location....

The requirement about the 20 Amp circuit(s) was moved to 210-11(c)(3) and reads thus:

(3) Bathroom Branch Circuits. In addition to the number of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, at least one 20-ampere branch circuit shall be provided to supply the bathroom receptacle outlet(s). Such circuits shall have no other outlets.
Exception: Where the 20-ampere circuit supplies a single bathroom, outlets for other equipment within the same bathroom shall be permitted to be supplied in accordance with Section 210-23(a).

Does this help with your original question?

 

[77401]

What happened in 2002?

 

[kbsparky]

<sigh> .... 2002 had some minor changes in text made, which resulted in little change, and clarification of a couple of issues:

210.52(D) Bathrooms. In dwelling units, at least one wall receptacle shall be installed in bathrooms within 900 mm (3 ft) of the outside edge of each basin. The receptacle outlet shall be located on a wall or partition that is adjacent to the basin or basin countertop.

No changes were made to 210.11(C)(3).

And, just to be certain that no one feels left out here, here is the text from the 2005 NEC:

210.52(D) Bathrooms. In dwelling units, at least one receptacle outlet shall be installed in bathrooms within 900 mm (3 ft) of the outside edge of each basin. The receptacle outlet shall be located on a wall or partition that is adjacent to the basin or basin countertop.
Exception: The receptacle shall not be required to be mounted in the wall or partution where it is installed on the side or face of the basin cabinet not more than 900 mm (12 in) below the countertop.

And, finally, there was a very minor editing of 210.11(C)(3) in 2005:

(3) Bathroom Branch Circuits. In addition to the number of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, at least one 20-ampere branch circuit shall be provided to supply bathroom receptacle outlet(s). Such circuits shall have no other outlets.
Exception: Where the 20-ampere circuit supplies a single bathroom, outlets for other equipment within the same bathroom shall be permitted to be supplied in accordance with Section 210.23(A)(1) and (A)(2).

 

[77401]

We have moderators
Lets make KB Forum Librarian for keeping outdated code books!

Thanks!

 

[kbsparky]

LOL !! I have my own personal collection of Code books back to 1971, when I was but a wee lad, and got my first job doing electrical work. I also have a 1965 book here that I found at a yard sale, but am missing the 1968 edition. Maybe I'll stumble on one, or get up enough gumption to bid on one on ebaY

 

[bikeindy]

I read "20 amp 'circuits' " ... I guess your 15 amp breaker would be WRONG ...
besides, 15 and 20 amp breakers usually cost the same, why would you use the 15 ...

...... I'd like to see an exception to 210.11(C)(3) that stated something like "Bathrooms that are smaller that 50 SF and do not serve as the primary bathroom to the dwelling are not required to have 20 ampere circuits supplying that bathrooms receptacal."

will you also make it illegal to use a hair dryer and curling iron in these bathrooms ....

ok Ill ask straight out indy ... how long have you been a Journeyman ...

have a great day everybody ... I know I will ... M

Gee the code may require you to use a 15 AMP breaker on a piece of equipment that has a max fuse of 15 AMPS MAYBE!

I have been in business for 4 years now and have had my masters for a little longer than that. prior to that I work in an industrial plant and before that worked for an EC. before that I spent 9 1/2 years working in the USAF on LASER guided weapons systems FLIR, Radar, Photo optical and Magnetic sensor systems on 6 different airframes in 3 different countries.

I really don't think that in a little bathroom your gonna have a problem with a hair dryer tripping a 15 amp circuit. anyway I have been in a lot of homes where the women are drying their hair in front of the TV plugged into a 15 amp circuit. What about some guy who wires all those bathrooms on one 20 AMP circuit and there are 4 women running hairdryers at one time in four bathrooms. what about that? you still can't seem to answer the real question I was asking. but it is answered now. go trol somewhere else

 

[bikeindy]

Since no one else seems to want to answer your question, I'll take a stab at it: It was the 1996 edition of the NEC that started to require 20 Amp circuits for the bathroom receptacles ---->

I'll start with the pertinent text of the 1993 NEC thus:


The 1996 edition reads slightly different:


Reading from the 1999 NEC, you will find the 20 Amp requirement missing:
The requirement about the 20 Amp circuit(s) was moved to 210-11(c)(3) and reads thus:


Does this help with your original question?

Thanks for the references

 

[iwire]

Gee the code may require you to use a 15 AMP breaker on a piece of equipment that has a max fuse of 15 AMPS MAYBE!

Any equipment with a 15 amp cord cap can be supplied from a 20 amp circuit.

What is the hardship of running a 20 amp circuit?

 

[77401]

LOL
Laser guided blow dryers? Or did I read it too fast?

Here's is a history of blow dryers from a guy that just has memories of when I had hair & a blow dryer.

Back in the early '70's the first blow dryers came into wide spread use for residential use. These were 750 watts.

Jump to the '80's & big hair(also 2006 in New Jersey & Texas). 750 watts were not enough to blow dry hair & still make it out in time for free cover charge. So Blow dryers were sold that were 1500 watts.

Today most Blow dryers are being sold that are 1875 watts or even more.

Now add to that same circuit an 1875 watt curling Iron

Easy math even for an old Masters license and no calculator.
1875/120=15.5amps This is for just one hair tool!

Get the picture?
George Foreman's Grill uses less power than she does getting ready?
So why should a 20 amp circuit with only bathroom receptacles be overkill? Unless your in MA where women don't primp.

Every is not bald like you and me!

Oh yea lets not forget about that electric hair trimmer she uses to trim the woods for your enjoyment! I have no idea how much power it uses but you can hear it buzzing from the other room....LOL

Have a good weekend, I'm out a here, don't forget to tip your waitress & bartenders!
(crowd goes wild with applause)

 

[Minuteman]

Laser guided blow dryers? Or did I read it too fast?

Here's is a history of blow dryers from a guy that just has memories of when I had hair & a blow dryer.

Every(one) is not bald like you and me!

Now we know why 77 posted that pic of himself as his Avatar! He fried his head with a laser guided blow dryer!

 

[bikeindy]

Any equipment with a 15 amp cord cap can be supplied from a 20 amp circuit.

What is the hardship of running a 20 amp circuit?

how about 422.11 (A), or 440.22(C)? But I think we are getting way off my original question here.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

77401,

1875/120=15.5amps This is for just one hair tool!

Give that the item in question has a 15 amp male cord end, I think that you will find that the device is rated at 1875 watts, 125 volts, so that it can be used with a 15 amp cord.
Don