Bathroom Receptacles

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strmtrpr73

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I have a little problem, I am wiring a house, I have a 20 amp circuit for the required bathroom receptacle, My problem is that I have a circuit for Christmas lights in the windows, now since this circuit is going through the whole house, bedrooms, dining room, bathrooms, and requires receptacles under each window in the areas mentioned above I was going to run a 20 amp,AFCI protected, and GFCI protect the receptacles in the bathrooms, but AHJ says that I cannot do this because the bathroom receptacles circuit cannot have any other outlets. I understand the code 210.11 (3) where he getting this from,and I think 210.23 (A), but the way I am reading these sections they are referring to the required circuits for the receptacles for the sinks, not for secondary lighting circuit. any thoughts
 
Re: Bathroom Receptacles

They way I read it it says "..at least one circuit to supply bathroom receptacle outlets, such circuits shall have no other outlets".
Meaning the minimum required circuit(s) shall have no other outlets.
This is a good question, although not a situation that comes up often. Unfortunately for you it is very open to interpertation.
 
Re: Bathroom Receptacles

I agree with Peter. (Nice name, by the way. :D )

Once you have met the minimum requirement, there is nothing to prevent you from adding additional 20 amp circuits in the bathroom.

Also, I see nothing to prevent you from adding switch control to the receptacle under a window in a bathroom, as long as this is not the minimum required receptacle.
 
Re: Bathroom Receptacles

A 20amp bath receptacle circuit can feed all bath recps.or supply a bathroom and whats in it,but just not leave it.
 
Re: Bathroom Receptacles

Originally posted by speedypetey: They way I read it it says "..at least one circuit to supply bathroom receptacle outlets, such circuits shall have no other outlets".
Meaning the minimum required circuit(s) shall have no other outlets.
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I disagree with this statement (or I should say that I have a different interpretation), and I agree with a.wayne3. When only one is required, when the minimum is one, you use the singular word ?circuit.? But the code then says ?such circuits? (i.e., plural). That tells me that all circuits that serve bathroom receptacles are included in the restriction that they are to serve no other outlets. If you already have three circuits in a bathroom (who knows why), and if you want to add another, then the fourth circuit will come under that same restriction.
 
Re: Bathroom Receptacles

We do this all of the time and never have a problem. That doesn't mean that your inspector is wrong.

Now with the AFCI requirement, we use an AFCI/GFCI combo breaker by Cutler Hammer.

We install a single receptacle under the bathroom window for the 'Holiday Lights'

As far as NEC, 210.11(C)(3) does not refer to 210.52(D).
 
Re: Bathroom Receptacles

I agree with Speedypetey and Peter D, which are both nice names by the way.
Looking at 210-11(c)2, refering to laundry branch circuits, it says, "This circuit shall have no other outlets." But the next item, refering to bathroom circuits, is almost the same but ends with, "Such circuits shall have no other outlets." At first this seems to re=enforce Charlie's point, but perhaps the dear Codemakers were refering to the possibility that there may be more than one bathroom in the house but it is unlikely that there would be more than one laundry in the house.
Do you have to be a lawyer to be an electrician?
For that matter, just run an extension cord for your Christmas lights.
Perhaps an out would be to put the Christmas tree, under the window receptacle, on a 15 amp circuit. This paragraph only refers to "20-ampere branch circuit"s.
Also note that the general oaragph of 219-11. says " In addition, , branch circuits shall be provided...' which implies that the bathroom 20 amp circuit is addition to what is already there.
I agree that this is a toss up, but I wish common sense could be applied. What is this section trying to accomplish?
~Peter
 
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Speaking about laundry... how would one have a washer/dryer in the bathroom and comply, does the code reference 120v only? or for that matter a receptacle for a hydro tub?I guess if the tub is not more than 80% of 20 amps your all set,just put it on with the sink recep. The recep. for the washer is not allowed I guess? And yes it does feel as if we are becoming lawyer like.
 
Re: Bathroom Receptacles

Originally posted by cram:
Speaking about laundry... how would one have a washer/dryer in the bathroom and comply, does the code reference 120v only?
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The dryer in a bathroom would not need GFCI protection if it is 240 volt, if it is a gas dryer with a 120 volt motor you will need GFCI protection.

If you have a washing machine in the bathroom it will have to be GFCI protected.

There are no exceptions in bathrooms.

If the washer and dryer are behind doors off of the bathroom I would say that space is a laundry area and a GFCI is not required. But that is just my opinion. :)
 
Re: Bathroom Receptacles

I remember this type of discussion coming up last year (Oct) regarding dining room receptacles - (i.e. if you added dining room receptacles in addition to those required do they have to also be on the 20A small appliance circuit)....after many days and 35 pages of discussion Mike Holt came in saying he believed that once you met the minimum requirement, then you could add extra receptacles from any circuit (Mike's comment came on Oct. 20, '03).

The purpose of the required dedicated circuit to the bath is to insure today's toys (1875W hairdryers) have enough 'juice' to operate and not trip the breaker. Why would you want to penalize someone for bringing in additional circuits for any subsidiary loading?

I am an inspector and would never call this, and my boss would tongue lash me for making such an onerous call.
 
Re: Bathroom Receptacles

dana1028 , Are you saying that you could have a 15 amp branch circuit feed receps in the dining room and counter top after you have met the two small appliance branch circuit requirement?I thought it said something about all the 120v receps in those locations,I would agree that you can have more than two circuits however.To answer the original question "at least one additional 20 amp branch circuit shall be provided to supply the bathroom receptacle outlet(s). Such circuits shall have no other outlets".It clearly says "all" and "no other"I think the inspector is right.. He has more than one circuit but the second circuit can no more serve other receps than the first, unless of course, they are located in other bathrooms.Did I miss something, what is the problem with putting the window recep on the same circuit as the other bathroom recep..,I assume it might be because they all want to be controlled by a switch? Just switch it separately if that is the problem.Dana1028 would you feel the same way if it were a 15 amp circuit that was feeding the christmas lights?
 
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If the owner wants to throw a single switch, and thereby turn on Christmas (I mean Holiday) lights throughout the house, by having one switched circuit with receptacles under all the windows, then I think the NEC would not allow it. However, I also think that this does not pose a safety concern. The rules about bathrooms and bedrooms would bring AFCI and GFCI into the party, just as strmtrpr73 had originally said.

I think the cleanest solution would be to request a variance from the AHJ, and get the permission in writing.
 
Re: Bathroom Receptacles

Charlie, it is all about liability, it will mean nothing in a courtroom to have a slip of paper signed by a city inspector,who in my opinion does not have the kind of authority you suggest,it is we, those of us who do electrical work for hire, that are responsible for the work preformed, not those who serve as a consumer protection agent.Do I think anything would happen, no, but if it did, it is you who will be explaining why you ran the circuits the way you did, not the A.H.J. Most cities have limited liability, they are after all just trying to give the public some measure of consumer protection,but we on the other hand profit from engaging in electrical work.I would put a separate switch,and harry homeowner can do what he wants when I'm gone.This one is black and white ..."All & No other". If it hits the fan you loose,please don't fool yourself into thinking it's O.K., you could make similar arguements with much of the code and end up being a crappy electrician.
 
Re: Bathroom Receptacles

Originally posted by cram: . . . it will mean nothing in a courtroom to have a slip of paper signed by a city inspector, who in my opinion does not have the kind of authority you suggest . . . .
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I did not say that the city inspector has that authority. But NEC 90.4 does grant that authority to ?the authority having jurisdiction.? The ?City? as an organizational entity can grant a waiver, but the ?Inspector? as a person cannot.

You are probably right about the liability issue. It is a good reason to look for another solution.

The liability issue is different on my side of the business (i.e., the licensed engineer). We have a unique source of liability, and a unique (though limited) type of protection. Our liability comes from the signed statement that ?This work was done by me or under my supervision.? The limited protection comes from the fact that our product is a document that we can bring into the courtroom. If I design something, and if the homeowner later changes it to something else, I can bring the drawing in and say ?This is what I designed, and it is safe, so the problem was caused by the homeowner.? The jury can see my drawing and can see an as-built drawing, and can see that someone other than myself made a change.

It is tougher for the electrician. You can say in court that you built it in the safe and proper way, and the homeowner can say that he did not make any changes. The jury will have to decide who is telling the truth, and they will be able to witness the homeowner?s grief over his loss.
 
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"I think the cleanest solution would be to request a variance from the AHJ, and get the permission in writing." Charlie,The A.H.J. is the N.E.C. not an inspector of wires or any other city or state official.That person(local inspector) can not disregard the intent of the code within his/her juristiction.I have never had anyone ever mention to me that I could have a "variance" on a code art."Permission"? To violate a code art? From who? The wording is strong "shall have no other outlets". Why this code was written this way I do not pretend to know, but we all can recommend changes to the N.E.C. may be this would be a art. for revision. As far as the courtroom, I'm not bringing a document that says I violated the N.E.C. signed by anyone up to and including the governor, the document they will bring is the N.E.C.(in my state, Massachusetts, we have a state code book)and it is very clear. Strmtrpr73 if you are out there, your inspector is right, harry can argue with him and maybe he could pull a permit for the Christmas light/ bathroom wiring and violate the code himself?( in Mass harry can pull a permit)Remember it is you who is ultimately responsible for the work you do.
 
Re: Bathroom Receptacles

Charlie one more point,A Town or city government can not make a State Law less, it can increase the requirement to a point, and it would apply across the board. When a State adopts the code book it is the bottom line, a city or town might think they can weaken it but (at least here in mass) they can not.I have been told at code seminars that the bylaws a community may impose would not hold up in court,I'm not sure if this is so,but who has time and money to find out.
 
Re: Bathroom Receptacles

Hi Marc I am a MA resident also.

Going to the National Code the AHJ can give the special permission that Charlie mentions, look at the second paragraph of NEC 90.4.

90.4 Enforcement.
This Code is intended to be suitable for mandatory application by governmental bodies that exercise legal jurisdiction over electrical installations, including signaling and communications systems, and for use by insurance inspectors. The authority having jurisdiction for enforcement of the Code has the responsibility for making interpretations of the rules, for deciding on the approval of equipment and materials, and for granting the special permission contemplated in a number of the rules.

By special permission, the authority having jurisdiction may waive specific requirements in this Code or permit alternative methods where it is assured that equivalent objectives can be achieved by establishing and maintaining effective safety.

This Code may require new products, constructions, or materials that may not yet be available at the time the Code is adopted. In such event, the authority having jurisdiction may permit the use of the products, constructions, or materials that comply with the most recent previous edition of this Code adopted by the jurisdiction.
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I can not see that the having a separate circuit passing through the bathroom would be a problem assuming the outlet is GFCI protected.

That said I doubt you would get it in writing from the AHJ. :)

Bob

[ September 18, 2004, 07:35 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]
 
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