Beloved Arc Flash

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zog

Senior Member
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Charlotte, NC
jim dungar said:
The manufacturer is not talking about arc resistant switchgear. They mean the operation of their fusible switches and circuit breakers and drawout circuit breakers that they offer now.?

Well they need to test it to some ANSI standard to make that claim, post a link to the equipment you are talking about.

jim dungar said:
What test method is acceptable per NFPA 70E? ?
ANSIC37.20.7 This test is for an arc resistant rating and is based on acheiving a HRC 0 rating, no switchgear rating will completey eliminate the arc flash hazard were no PPE is required.

jim dungar said:
How should companies write their ESWP's to address the vague verb "interact"? Going back to my original point of discussion, why doesn't a barrier which prevents contact with the energized line side terminations of a locked open switch also prevent interaction with them?

Contact with energied line side is a shock issue, which there is none according to your decription (LAB, RAB, PAB dont apply) but the arc flash hazard exists.

I am on a special commitee reporting to the 70E regarding "Risk", we will be doing research and testing this year to help answer your question about the "Interact" (I will post results here) verb, some "Interactions" are obvious, operating breakers, opening doors, etc. Others are not, being in a MCC room, oil samples, IR scans, etc.
 

jim dungar

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zog said:
Contact with energied line side is a shock issue, which there is none according to your decription (LAB, RAB, PAB dont apply) but the arc flash hazard exists.

I am on a special commitee reporting to the 70E regarding "Risk", we will be doing research and testing this year to help answer your question about the "Interact" (I will post results here) verb, some "Interactions" are obvious, operating breakers, opening doors, etc. Others are not, being in a MCC room, oil samples, IR scans, etc.

There are many grey areas in the NFPA 70E, isn't this one of them? Remember my discussion began with the supposition that a panel was in an electrically safe condition per the present article 120, except there are energized but not exposed terminal present. You say that an arc flash hazard exists even if an arc can not be created. Then why aren't arc flash labels required on parts of raceways like conduit bodies (i.e. LBs) and wire troughs.

I am only asking for the discussion so that grey ares of 70E can be addressed like grey areas of other codes and standards.
 

zog

Senior Member
Location
Charlotte, NC
jim dungar said:
You say that an arc flash hazard exists even if an arc can not be created.

I never said that, now you are putting words in my mouth. You dont have to be able to jam a screwdriver in there to start an arc flash, many many different things can intiate an arc flash.
 

jim dungar

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PE (Retired) - Power Systems
zog said:
I never said that, now you are putting words in my mouth. You dont have to be able to jam a screwdriver in there to start an arc flash, many many different things can intiate an arc flash.

If there are only three conductors terminated in lugs behind guards, what can cause the arc flash. The live parts can not be touched. The switch they are connected to cannot be operated. There is zero interaction with these guared live parts. I are not talking about needing to contain an arc flash, I am discussing if one can even occur.

A typical real life application like this would be a fusible disconnect - if the incoming lines are completly guarded how can changing a fuse require arc flash PPE but not shock protection. I understand there are no guarded devices like this on the market (to my knowledge) but what if one did exist?
 

zog

Senior Member
Location
Charlotte, NC
jim dungar said:
If there are only three conductors terminated in lugs behind guards, what can cause the arc flash. The live parts can not be touched. The switch they are connected to cannot be operated. There is zero interaction with these guared live parts. I are not talking about needing to contain an arc flash, I am discussing if one can even occur.

A typical real life application like this would be a fusible disconnect - if the incoming lines are completly guarded how can changing a fuse require arc flash PPE but not shock protection. I understand there are no guarded devices like this on the market (to my knowledge) but what if one did exist?

The breaker itself can fail (Insulation failure or/and overvoltage like a switching transient or lightning strike), water can get in, conductive dust, etc. Are these likely, no not really, but they happen, I have responded to many such occurances for industrial systems.
 

jim dungar

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Location
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PE (Retired) - Power Systems
zog said:
The breaker itself can fail (Insulation failure or/and overvoltage like a switching transient or lightning strike), water can get in, conductive dust, etc. Are these likely, no not really, but they happen, I have responded to many such occurances for industrial systems.

Zog,

An overvoltage situation would require shock PPE but previously you acknowledged that the guarding would address RAB and PAB. Water or conductive dust inside of the switching device indicates poor maintenance (which is against NFPA 70E) in which case even the calculated PPE may longer be suitable. Also, it would mean that this device could no longer be trusted as a LOTO disconnect for a downstream device.

So, going to an extreme, could a case be made that arc flash and shock PPE always be worn, because no true LOTO switch exists?

The authors of NFPA 70E acknowledge that sometime risk analysis that needs to be performed. They mention it in the requirements for energized work permits and they provide an example in the annexes. I find that if people understand some of the reasoning behind a decision they are more likely to grudgingly accept it, otherwise they simply ignore it as illogical.
 

wolff162

Member
Hate to muddle the mix any more than it is, but this a current real life situation that I thought I understood, but am no longer sure about.....

We are a large industrial facility - a dozen buildings, 1.5M sqft, with an 8mw load. I have over 800 panels from 120/208 to 277/480. At last count over 8,500 breaker circuits. We do the best we can to comply with out internal safety manual and OSHA, and of course the NEC (our state is currently 2005 edition).

My question is - per current general laws, do I need to wear PPE to open a single pole 15A 120VAC breaker? I have an outside "authority" who claims yes, because I am opened the door to access the breaker.

My argument is that "covers off" is not the same as "door open" but he disagrees and states that opening the door changes everything. I pointed out that panel doors are not even required - you can buy panels with no doors, but he is adamant.

I do not wish to get into the philosophical side of what the next edition of 70E may require, nor what's in 2008 NEC. I work to 2005 NEC and to 70E-2000 for OSHA compliance, using the 2004 edition for guidance. I just want to know if I am required to train and provide PPE to 3,000 people just so they can turn off the breaker for the copy machine before they leave on Friday night.

thanks
 

billsnuff

Senior Member
see table 130.7(C)(9)(a) NFPA 70E '04 Panelboards rated 240V and below. CB or fused switch operation with cover ON. (door open) Hazard 0, V rated Gloves no, V rated tools no. Check out all of 130.7 PPE. Is the Incident Energy below 1.2 Cal/cm sq'd? see 130.7(C)(5)
 

cschmid

Senior Member
I love this discussion..Now I want to muddle this alittle bit and change the focus from line side to load side and the testing of live circuits and equipement..I do not have my 70E handbook in front of me but will this afternoon..Lets drop this discussion down just alittle if we can gentlemen..

Electricians are suppose to wear ppe while working on energized parts..Now a hot water heater is energized and you troubleshooting it live..while working on it due you wear your ppe??now how much extra does that add to an ec cost for repairing a hot water heater?? does the hot water heater need to be labeled??why does this apply only to electricians and not plumbers when they repair hot water heaters..

You see I wanted to drop this down just so you could elaborate this issue on everyday service calls for electricains..Like the gutter issue during trouble shooting..I would bet that very few of the people who read this even realize how this applies to the simplest issues..

Like the 200amp panel in the house they are wiring..they have hook up the main then put cardboard over the panel face so they can have temp power and start putting home runs in it..while energized..these are some of the basic everyday work habits..now can you relate some of this discussion to address these issues..

Zog is that offer open to the video that you stated earlier to Jim..I am very aware of the pain involved in 2nd and third degree burn issue..I watched while they pealed the glue off my skin down to the surface of my muscle..I hated seeing the doctor and having the nurse scrub my arms they literally strapped me down to do it..I could not even wipe my self how embarrasing..this was not for just couple weeks either..I understand and I was one of the lucky ones can not hardly even find a scar..so I am interested and concerned..Yet still cautious of over regulation and also aware of the under appreciated seriousness of this issue.. Just my 2 cents..
 

jim dungar

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Location
Wisconsin
Occupation
PE (Retired) - Power Systems
cschmid said:
I love this discussion..Now I want to muddle this alittle bit and change the focus from line side to load side and the testing of live circuits and equipement..I do not have my 70E handbook in front of me but will this afternoon..Lets drop this discussion down just alittle if we can gentlemen..

Electricians are suppose to wear ppe while working on energized parts..Now a hot water heater is energized and you troubleshooting it live..while working on it due you wear your ppe??now how much extra does that add to an ec cost for repairing a hot water heater?? does the hot water heater need to be labeled??why does this apply only to electricians and not plumbers when they repair hot water heaters..

You see I wanted to drop this down just so you could elaborate this issue on everyday service calls for electricains..Like the gutter issue during trouble shooting..I would bet that very few of the people who read this even realize how this applies to the simplest issues..

Like the 200amp panel in the house they are wiring..they have hook up the main then put cardboard over the panel face so they can have temp power and start putting home runs in it..while energized..these are some of the basic everyday work habits..now can you relate some of this discussion to address these issues..

Zog is that offer open to the video that you stated earlier to Jim..I am very aware of the pain involved in 2nd and third degree burn issue..I watched while they pealed the glue off my skin down to the surface of my muscle..I hated seeing the doctor and having the nurse scrub my arms they literally strapped me down to do it..I could not even wipe my self how embarrasing..this was not for just couple weeks either..I understand and I was one of the lucky ones can not hardly even find a scar..so I am interested and concerned..Yet still cautious of over regulation and also aware of the under appreciated seriousness of this issue.. Just my 2 cents..

Why would you not want to wear the appropriate PPE when a know hazard exists? I have never expressed an opinion against PPE, my original question dealt with deciding IF a hazard existed.
NFPA70E applies to Workplaces. NFPA70E is for everyone working on electrical systems not just electricians (in fact I don't think the word electrician is even in NFPA70E). While I am not sure that OSHA normally covers service work in residential or commercial applications, I am pretty confident that their rules always apply to you as an employer.
 

zog

Senior Member
Location
Charlotte, NC
cschmid said:
Electricians are suppose to wear ppe while working on energized parts..Now a hot water heater is energized and you troubleshooting it live..while working on it due you wear your ppe?? now how much extra does that add to an ec cost for repairing a hot water heater??

Few bucks, average cost of a serious electrical injury is $17.4 Million to the company, how much does that add to the service call? Answer, it dosent add anything to the service call because the company is out of business and everyone is out of a job, and 1 is in a burn unit.

cschmid said:
does the hot water heater need to be labeled??..

Nope, not covered under 70E

cschmid said:
why does this apply only to electricians and not plumbers when they repair hot water heaters....

Well put by Jim, never thought about it before but I think he is right about "Electrician" not even being in the 70E, I will have to check on that one.

cschmid said:
Zog is that offer open to the video that you stated earlier to Jim......

Sure, go here, you can look at all of them but go to the no manikin 4 cal/cm2 one first, 4 cal/cm2 is nothing to most people, when you see one live, it is different. These are the same teats I was involved with.
http://www.westexinc.com/flash_video/westex.html
 

cschmid

Senior Member
I am not implying that you not use ppe..what I am pointing out is the need for it in everyday situations that people do..I hope I did not imply you guys are promoting to not use PPE..

Yet you started off on a 240 volt single phase panel and your theoretical discussion has remained around the incoming lug system of the same panel if I have followed corectly..you have crossed over to a disconnect and then back to a main lug system..we have discussed the containment of a arc and the suppression of an arc..

I enjoy reading your discussion and respect your knowledge in this area..I would like you guys to entertain the thought of how this affects the service area and how new testing procedures may need to be developed and taught in school for maintenance applications..

When I talk about hot water heaters I am including the average small 40 gallon residential water heater..Yet with the increase in hydronic heating systems the hot water boilers are increasing in usage and some of them are very large..I have installed ones and maintain them that are 125 amp three phase systems..so this is more and more relevant..

Plumbers service them and I would bet they know not of the 70E requirment..So how would you go about educating their industry..how about sign installer they do electrical work and they work on high voltage neon signs do you think they follow 70E..I am not promoting not using PPE what I am stating though is that there are people who use this site and are guilty of not using PPE..How do we get everyone on board and yet with these discussions we do influence people for the true need of PPE..So do we implement it in continuing educational requirment..Lets expand this discussion and thank you gentlemen for the continued education..:D

edited to add..nice link and thank you..if you read this check out the link..
 
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jim dungar

Moderator
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Location
Wisconsin
Occupation
PE (Retired) - Power Systems
cschmid said:
When I talk about hot water heaters I am including the average small 40 gallon residential water heater..Yet with the increase in hydronic heating systems the hot water boilers are increasing in usage and some of them are very large..I have installed ones and maintain them that are 125 amp three phase systems..so this is more and more relevant..

Plumbers service them and I would bet they know not of the 70E requirment..So how would you go about educating their industry..how about sign installer they do electrical work and they work on high voltage neon signs do you think they follow 70E..I am not promoting not using PPE what I am stating though is that there are people who use this site and are guilty of not using PPE..How do we get everyone on board and yet with these discussions we do influence people for the true need of PPE..So do we implement it in continuing educational requirment..Lets expand this discussion and thank you gentlemen for the continued education..:D

NFPA70E (and the NEC) only talk about "qualified" and "un-qualified" persons. They don't care if you are an electrician or a security guard, if you install electrical equipment you need to follow the NEC, if you work on electrical equipment you need to follow NFPA70E.

I wonder what the judge in a court of law will say when the excuse "I am a plumber - electrical rules don't apply to me" is used.
 

cschmid

Senior Member
I believe we are talking about the NESC (NFPA 70E) here and which I have some questions..I have the NESC handbook and in it it states the following..Scope of the NESC

The NESC covers supply and communication lines, equipment, and associated work practices employed by a public or private electric supply, communications, railway, or similar utility in the exercise of its function as a utility. The rules of the NESC covers similar systems under the control of qualified persons, such as those associated with an industrial complex or utility interactive system.

NESC? rules do not cover installations in mines, ships, railway rolling equipment, aircraft, or automotive equipment, or utilization wiring except as covered in Parts 1 and 3. For building utilization wiring requirements, see the National Electrical Code? (NEC?), NFPA 70.

this is from section 011. scope..I hate to do work for word typing as my data entry skills are marginal..when we get into the OSHA rules being quoted they are also quoted as the "OSHA standards related to the NESC work rules" 1926.950 through 1926.960..this is also out of the handbook appendix B..

Now where I am headed here is that I would like the OSHA standard list that pertains to the NEC..The only time the NESC overlaps is when we are in construction types that utilize high voltage distribution systems..like colleges, large industrial, and other areas where high voltage utilization is employed..

NESC intent is for utility companies but not totally limited to as stated above it does over lap in certain areas..
 

zog

Senior Member
Location
Charlotte, NC
jim dungar said:
NFPA70E (and the NEC) only talk about "qualified" and "un-qualified" persons. They don't care if you are an electrician or a security guard, if you install electrical equipment you need to follow the NEC, if you work on electrical equipment you need to follow NFPA70E.

I wonder what the judge in a court of law will say when the excuse "I am a plumber - electrical rules don't apply to me" is used.

I have developed 70E training programs for enforcement officers, electrical, utilities, other skilled trades (MCA), and non technical groups. Each course differed in the subject matter because each group had different concerns and different equipment/hazards, but all achived the "Qualification" requirements for thier specific tasks. The 70E requirements for a qualfied person are the same for everyone, lets look at them.

According to the NFPA 70E, a ?Qualified Person" is one who is trained and knowledgeable of the construction and operation of the equipment or the specific work method, and be trained to recognize the hazards present.

Such persons shall also be familiar with the use of the precautionary techniques, personal protective equipment, insulating and shielding materials, and insulated tools and test equipment. A person can be considered qualified with respect to certain tasks but still be unqualified for others.

In addition, to be permitted to work within the limited approach of exposed energized conductors and circuit parts the person shall be trained in all of the following:
Qualified employees shall be trained and competent in:
 The skills and techniques necessary to distinguish exposed live parts from other parts of electric equipment
 The skills and techniques necessary to determine the nominal voltage of exposed live parts
 The minimum approach distances specified in this section corresponding to the voltages to which the qualified employee will be exposed, and,
 The decision making process necessary to determine the degree and extent of the hazard and the personal protective equipment and job planning necessary to perform the task safely


Notice there is no mention of electrician there at all, however one could say only a person with an electrical backgroud would be competent in the skills necessary to work within the LAB of exposed live parts, that work should be limited to electricans anyways, and usually is at most facillities.

"A person can be considered qualified with respect to certain tasks but still be unqualified for others" is a key phrase here, I wa actually hired by an automotive company to develop procedures and train service techs for working on the Hybrid vehicles (Yes there is an arc flash hazard there), so that training was task specific for that and they met the 70E requirements for a qualified person, does that mean they can go do T/S a 15kV power system? Not at all.

The thing that must be understood is that there is no such thing as a "Certification" in 70E, some training programs advertise this, it dosent exist, there is no certifing body, sure I can certify you but that dosent mean squat.
There also is no training program that can qualify you, a 70E training couse has to meet the requirements listed above be you have to be trained and competent, so further skill evaluation is necessary. There is only one way to be qualified, and that is by your employer.

Your employer is the one how is responsible for determining if you are trained and skilled enough to be qualified, there are training documentation requirements for them (2008 70E will require refresher training at least every 3 years, but we wont get into 2008 70E here) to follow, and if an accident happens and OSHA comes by, I promise you they will be asking to see training records and your safety program.qualification procedures for that employee, dont care if he hangs off a helicopter working on 500,000V lines or is installing a water heater.
 

zog

Senior Member
Location
Charlotte, NC
cschmid said:
I believe we are talking about the NESC (NFPA 70E) here and which I have some questions..I have the NESC handbook and in it it states the following..Scope of the NESC

The NESC covers supply and communication lines, equipment, and associated work practices employed by a public or private electric supply, communications, railway, or similar utility in the exercise of its function as a utility. The rules of the NESC covers similar systems under the control of qualified persons, such as those associated with an industrial complex or utility interactive system.

NESC? rules do not cover installations in mines, ships, railway rolling equipment, aircraft, or automotive equipment, or utilization wiring except as covered in Parts 1 and 3. For building utilization wiring requirements, see the National Electrical Code? (NEC?), NFPA 70.

this is from section 011. scope..I hate to do work for word typing as my data entry skills are marginal..when we get into the OSHA rules being quoted they are also quoted as the "OSHA standards related to the NESC work rules" 1926.950 through 1926.960..this is also out of the handbook appendix B..

Now where I am headed here is that I would like the OSHA standard list that pertains to the NEC..The only time the NESC overlaps is when we are in construction types that utilize high voltage distribution systems..like colleges, large industrial, and other areas where high voltage utilization is employed..

NESC intent is for utility companies but not totally limited to as stated above it does over lap in certain areas..

Not really sure what you are asking here, the NESC is not the same as the NFPA 70E (Thats what I think you are implying from your 1st sentence). The NEC is the NFPA 70, the NFPA 70E is an extension of the NEC.

Technically the utilities are not required to follow NFPA 70E (For now, that is about to change). Most of the requirements from the 70E can be found in OSHA 1910.269, which is for generation, transmission, and Distribution.

Yes there are areas that overlap each other, if that is what you are asking. Maybe you can rephrase your question.

SKOL VIKINGS!
 

jim dungar

Moderator
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Location
Wisconsin
Occupation
PE (Retired) - Power Systems
zog said:
Notice there is no mention of electrician there at all, however one could say only a person with an electrical backgroud would be competent in the skills necessary to work within the LAB of exposed live parts, that work should be limited to electricans anyways, and usually is at most facillities.

There are many people that work on electrical cabinets within the LAB in industrial plants that do not have an in depth electrical background, such as instrument and control techs as well as many manufacturer's field service reps.

NFPA 70E is about being qualified for the specific tasks you are performing and not perfoming tasks you are un-qualified for.
 

cschmid

Senior Member
yeppers you are correct I got the two mixed up sorry..so now got to go back to drawing board have wrong book in hand..So I can not give references for while and am off for five days to see son who is home on leave from IRAQ..

So my question is how do we educate the plumbers, sign installers and the hvac guys..lets use the hot water heater senerio..It is a 125 amps, 3phase and the disconnects are with in site..how do you get other professions to use the code for arc flash..we should also look at the arc flash of neon signage..

if you read my previous posts I also would like to know how we get everyone on board with this..I have never had an inspector ask to see if we had NFPA 70e on the job site..infact I would bet a lot of contractors don't even own one..the link you gave me was good thanks..
 

don_resqcapt19

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Staff member
Location
Illinois
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retired electrician
cschmid said:
..I have never had an inspector ask to see if we had NFPA 70e on the job site..
While I agree that the rules in 70E need to be followed, they are not part of the NEC and the inspector has no reason to ask about 70E.
Don
 
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