Bid on small job trying to be fair on both ends

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Doctor Electric

Doctor Electric

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I have a job coming up that I have to look at and from my understanding it is just a condo with attic access and they want to get some ceiling fan boxes installed with the fans and possibly some can lights on switches for all of them.

My question is should I go in with a bid of per hour, and material; or should I simply just bid it per opening and what is a good per opening rate to charge. They live in a well off neighborhood and they probably aren't hurting for the cash but have a baby coming.

Any thoughts on this would be great thanks guys.
 
Doctor Electric said:
I have a job coming up that I have to look at and from my understanding it is just a condo with attic access and they want to get some ceiling fan boxes installed with the fans and possibly some can lights on switches for all of them.

My question is should I go in with a bid of per hour, and material; or should I simply just bid it per opening and what is a good per opening rate to charge. They live in a well off neighborhood and they probably aren't hurting for the cash but have a baby coming.

Any thoughts on this would be great thanks guys.
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Your time is worth the same whether they are poor as church mice or siblings of Bill Gates with triplets on the way. If you've already surveyed the work you should have a good idea how you are going to perform it. Give them a fixed price and be done. No one is going to reduce your costs because you're a nice guy. You have to eat too.
 
My question is should I go in with a bid of per hour, and material; or should I simply just bid it per opening and what is a good per opening rate to charge.
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What would your per opening price be, and how did you come up with it?
 
Doctor Electric said:
I think 50 bucks a space maybe what do you think
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Ok, they want fans installed where there is none. So you are going to do them for $50 each? Let's see.....it takes an hour to locate where to cut the hole, cut hole, run wire, possibly having to cut in a switch, find/add a junction box etc.
Then assemble and install the fan.
All for $50?

You should lay it out on paper, the cost of material and the time it takes to do it. Probably need to add some time because it always seems to take longer. Add your mark up on the material, then your profit, then your labor. I bet you come up with way over $50 to do all it takes to install a fan in an area that has no light or power.

If you've done enough "virgin" installs for fans or can lights you can come up with a close "per each price". But if you just pull a number out of the air you won't be in business long.
 
gadfly56 said:
Your time is worth the same whether they are poor as church mice or siblings of Bill Gates with triplets on the way. If you've already surveyed the work you should have a good idea how you are going to perform it. Give them a fixed price and be done. No one is going to reduce your costs because you're a nice guy. You have to eat too.
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And the knowledge and experience to estimate accurately and bid accordingly is what helps you get future jobs as well as not lose money. Charity work should be seen as a time to take good notes on how long something takes. If you're working as an employee you just do the work as told and the billing issue is not your concern.
 
There's between zero to what you'd like to mark up on materials. This is the slack you can use if you had to. Pay close attention to how you though it will go, how it went. Go home and check over what you estimated, how long it took you and any issues you've run into. Barely making anything on something new the first time is fine but you'll do it again if you don't keep track of why.
 
Electric-Light said:
There's between zero to what you'd like to mark up on materials. This is the slack you can use if you had to. Pay close attention to how you though it will go, how it went. Go home and check over what you estimated, how long it took you and any issues you've run into. Barely making anything on something new the first time is fine but you'll do it again if you don't keep track of why.
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You have never been an electrical contractor or even earned a living as an electrian have you?
 
Doctor Electric said:
I have a job coming up that I have to look at and from my understanding it is just a condo with attic access and they want to get some ceiling fan boxes installed with the fans and possibly some can lights on switches for all of them.

My question is should I go in with a bid of per hour, and material; or should I simply just bid it per opening and what is a good per opening rate to charge. They live in a well off neighborhood and they probably aren't hurting for the cash but have a baby coming.

Any thoughts on this would be great thanks guys.
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I'm with gadfly. Fixed price.
I was in a different area - mostly industrial and that's the norm. But even in commercial or residential, look at it from the customer's POV. You would want to know how much the job will cost, not an open ended how much it could cost.

Another point that gadfly indirectly mentioned - if they are as poor as church mice will they be able to pay you? Would you want an up-front payment to at least cover your material costs. Your supplier will want to be paid even if your customer can't/doesn't cough up.
Yes, the commercial world can have harsh realities.
 
Doctor Electric said:
I have a job coming up that I have to look at and from my understanding it is just a condo with attic access and they want to get some ceiling fan boxes installed with the fans and possibly some can lights on switches for all of them.

My question is should I go in with a bid of per hour, and material; or should I simply just bid it per opening and what is a good per opening rate to charge. They live in a well off neighborhood and they probably aren't hurting for the cash but have a baby coming.

Any thoughts on this would be great thanks guys.
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If you go in with a bid of $X per hour plus $Y for materials, next thing they will ask you is how many hours do you think it will take?

Give them a finished price, whether you calculate it per hole or estimate your time and materials doesn't matter, just make sure either way you figured in some extra for those surprises you may not have expected, or those surprises eat away at the profit margin.

Should you run into some major thing that will run the cost up after you started, you then maybe consider confronting them and telling them the situation and that it is something totally unexpected and see where that goes. If they are decent and understanding people they may just ask for new estimate for the changes needed.
 
kwired said:
If you go in with a bid of $X per hour plus $Y for materials, next thing they will ask you is how many hours do you think it will take?

Give them a finished price, whether you calculate it per hole or estimate your time and materials doesn't matter, just make sure either way you figured in some extra for those surprises you may not have expected, or those surprises eat away at the profit margin.

Should you run into some major thing that will run the cost up after you started, you then maybe consider confronting them and telling them the situation and that it is something totally unexpected and see where that goes. If they are decent and understanding people they may just ask for new estimate for the changes needed.
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If you're decent and understanding, would you oblige with smiles when they demand a significant discount if things went much easier than expected? If not, this is not being fair on "both ends". If you bid too high, they might get other bids and give the work to someone else. If you bid too low, you're bound to finish the job for the price. The purpose of contract is to prevent one side from manipulating and exploiting the other side to their own interest. Laws are different in each state. Those contingencies needs to be part of the written contract which should be written by or with the help of an attorney.
 
Electric-Light said:
If you're decent and understanding, would you oblige with smiles when they demand a significant discount if things went much easier than expected? If not, this is not being fair on "both ends". If you bid too high, they might get other bids and give the work to someone else. If you bid too low, you're bound to finish the job for the price. The purpose of contract is to prevent one side from manipulating and exploiting the other side to their own interest. Laws are different in each state. Those contingencies needs to be part of the written contract which should be written by or with the help of an attorney.
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Understand, that is what bidding is about. I don't bid on very much of the work I do. Sometimes people do want an estimate. Depending on circumstances sometimes I do tell them that the estimate is high to cover worst case scenario and that their final bill will not likely be over the estimate amount. This especially true for a lot of projects that don't have very specific plans to estimate off of, which I seem to run into a lot.
 
We bid just about everything. The easiest way to do it is unit price stuff. That way you just add it all up. I can usually do a very accurate bid before leaving the site if it's a smaller job like in the OPs situation. It takes a while to fine tune the numbers, but once you have them it makes bidding go really quick. You can adjust the numbers each year for inflation, wage increases, material increases, etc.

Example:

6" remodel recessed can with baffle trim and BR30, remodel, fished in - $175.00 each. This includes the materials (can, lamp, trim, wire) and the labor to install. If they want four, just multiply by four.
Add a single pole switch, remodel, fished in - $125.00 each. They will need for the cans, includes labor and material.
AFCI protection, existing circuit - $75.00 includes labor and material.
Permit - $120.00

So, you add them all up and you come up with $920.00 for the above made-up job.
 
MNSparky said:
We bid just about everything. The easiest way to do it is unit price stuff. That way you just add it all up. I can usually do a very accurate bid before leaving the site if it's a smaller job like in the OPs situation. It takes a while to fine tune the numbers, but once you have them it makes bidding go really quick. You can adjust the numbers each year for inflation, wage increases, material increases, etc.

Example:

6" remodel recessed can with baffle trim and BR30, remodel, fished in - $175.00 each. This includes the materials (can, lamp, trim, wire) and the labor to install. If they want four, just multiply by four.
Add a single pole switch, remodel, fished in - $125.00 each. They will need for the cans, includes labor and material.
AFCI protection, existing circuit - $75.00 includes labor and material.
Permit - $120.00

So, you add them all up and you come up with $920.00 for the above made-up job.
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Cool and I have a question not a criticism, What do you do about what we call 'mobilization'? Basically the costs to get to the job, get the supplies etc.

If you do one can at $175 at one location that may eat up 1/2 day (4 hours).

On the other hand all four might be done in six hours.

Seems like you are making a lot less % for small jobs.
 
iwire said:
Cool and I have a question not a criticism, What do you do about what we call 'mobilization'? Basically the costs to get to the job, get the supplies etc.

If you do one can at $175 at one location that may eat up 1/2 day (4 hours).

On the other hand all four might be done in six hours.

Seems like you are making a lot less % for small jobs.
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All the prices list that I have seen that work like this have a miminum number of lights that this price is good for ( 4-5). Even at that there is max ceiling height of 10' or an additional charge.

If you bother to give a bid to install one light you have already lost money, that's a service call.

The good thing is I don't think I have ever been asked to intall just one recessed light.
 
iwire said:
Cool and I have a question not a criticism, What do you do about what we call 'mobilization'? Basically the costs to get to the job, get the supplies etc.
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We don't do separate trip charges or mobilization charges because that really turns people off. We are located in a large metro area so it typically doesn't take much more than 30-45 minutes to get to a job. That is covered in the unit pricing. If an estimator looked at the job, the parts will have been ordered and delivered to the site or the electricians house free of charge by the supply house.

If you do one can at $175 at one location that may eat up 1/2 day (4 hours).

On the other hand all four might be done in six hours.
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I envisioned the above job being done in a bedroom with accessible attic above. I'd estimate one of my guys could get it done in 3-4 hrs. If we were doing just one can, we wouldn't go out to bid it. It would be done T&M, which is always a winner.

If the above job was without attic, like on a first floor with a floor above, those prices would go up.

Seems like you are making a lot less % for small jobs.
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If it takes longer than expected, yes. We actually do very well on smaller jobs because we have dialed in the unit pricing over the years and adjust it yearly. A lot of the time we make more than our target % on smaller jobs.
 
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