Big oops ... need suggestions

Status
Not open for further replies.
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Al , If it said the premises wiring system in the definition of outlet I think I would be with you but it says "the system".

The point at witch current is taken is at the the?connection to the light not the connection to the switch . The switch controls the flow of current to the point of outlet.

Why do you insist that " the system " in the definition of outlet applies to only premises wiring systems ??

My understanding tells me that you can connect to a non premises wiring system and still be part of "the system" . This connection does not meet the definition of outlet.

How about this , the word "taken" implies a force required for removal , this does not happen at the switch .To me the outlet point is the point of connection on the system to the utilization equipment that actually causes the current to flow.
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Branch Circuit, Appliance. A branch circuit that supplies energy to one or more outlets to which appliances are to be connected and that has no permanently connected luminaires (lighting fixtures) that are not a part of an appliance.
Click to expand...
Now answet this please.
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by jwelectric:
One question that has come to mind is where or what would constitute an outlet for something hard wired such as a disposal or dishwasher in a dwelling unit?

Would it be the _________?
(A) The breaker
(B) The switch
(C) The junction box on the appliance (I believe this to be part of the appliance)
(D) 0ther, give a short description
Click to expand...
IMO the answer is (C) as that is (in my experience) the 'point' where the premise wiring system ends.

We would not usually install a box at the DW, typically we would run a cable right from the panel to the DW location left as a long whip to be connected into the DW at the time of installation.

If (C) is not the 'outlet' in this case than the panel would have to be the outlet and I am not buying that. :p
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by jwelectric:
(C) The junction box on the appliance (I believe this to be part of the appliance)
Click to expand...
I would also call the junction box on the appliance as part of the appliance.

However IMO that is irrelevant as the J-box is not "wiring".

Premises Wiring (System). That interior and exterior wiring, including power, lighting, control, and signal circuit wiring together with all their associated hardware, fittings, and wiring devices, both permanently and temporarily installed, that extends from the service point or source of power, such as a battery, a solar photovoltaic system, or a generator, transformer, or converter windings, to the outlet(s). Such wiring does not include wiring internal to appliances, luminaires (fixtures), motors, controllers, motor control centers, and similar equipment.
Click to expand...
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by Iwire:
If (C) is not the 'outlet' in this case than the panel would have to be the outlet and I am not buying that.
Click to expand...
:D :D :D
We'll come back to that. :D :D :D
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by al hildenbrand:
Originally posted by Charlie B.:
The last three items in your list are not being included as examples of "wiring." They are being included as examples of things that, in addition to wiring, are part of the system
Click to expand...
They are part of the Premises Wiring (System).
Click to expand...
But they are not themselves "wiring." They are part of the system, but they are not wiring. The definition does not say that a wiring device is wiring. In fact, it simply does not say what you want it to say. Rather, it says what it says. (Some smart guy said that once). And you are not going to get past what it says. Here is what it says:</font>
  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The wiring devices associated with interior wiring is part of the system.</font>
  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The wiring internal to controllers is not part of the system.</font>
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by jwelectric: One question that has come to mind is where or what would constitute an outlet for something hard wired such as a disposal or dishwasher in a dwelling unit?

Would it be the _________?
(A) The breaker
(B) The switch
(C) The junction box on the appliance (I believe this to be part of the appliance)
(D) 0ther, give a short description
Click to expand...
I will go with (D).

Just before the wires leave the space within the interior wall, they will pass through a standard 2x4 box. The wires may go all the way from the breaker into that box, and out the box by another several feet, without any breaks in the conductors. Or there may be wire nut connections within that box. It does not matter. The box itself and the wires within that box are part of the premises wiring system. The wires that are outside the box are not. So in "conversational English," in terms that are not intended to be absolutely precise, I would call the box the outlet. If you tried to pin me down to a precise point (e.g., no larger than one cubic millimeter) somewhere on planet Earth, I would tend to say the point at which the wires pass beyond the wall plate.
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Charlie your assuming. :D

Originally posted by charlie b:
Just before the wires leave the space within the interior wall, they will pass through a standard 2x4 box.
Click to expand...
On my jobs there would be no box at all Charlie, a continuous piece of cable from the panel to the DW.

Even if there was a box IMO if I install a whip from the box to the DW it is still part of the premise wiring.

As far as I know we have two choices of wiring.

1)Premise wiring

2)Wiring internal to listed equipment.

I am not permitted to modify the listed wiring so the whip must be premise wiring or it is not covered by the NEC.

Is there a third type of wiring that I can work on?
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by iwire:As far as I know we have two choices of wiring. . . . Is there a third type of wiring that I can work on?
Click to expand...
Yes. Does it need a name? Why do you think there are only the two? I wouldn't know where to start, if I had to look that one up in the NEC.

OK. I'll confess. I am not an electrician.

But consider a lab space in a medical building. There are horizontal surfaces on which electronic test equipment is placed. The equipment is hard wired to an outlet box in the wall. The wire from the box to the equipment (the "whip," if I understand your term) is provided by the equipment manufacturer. You connect the whip to the wires inside the box, using wire nuts.

Would you still say the box is not the outlet? Would you still say that the whip is part of the premises wiring system?

I would not. I think that the premises wiring system must necessarily end before you leave the wall or ceiling. But since I have not installed a wide variety of electrical stuff, I may be missing something here.
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by marc deschenes:
The point at witch current is taken is at the connection to the light not the connection to the switch . The switch controls the flow of current to the point of outlet.

Why do you insist that " the system " in the definition of outlet applies to only premises wiring systems ??
Click to expand...
Mark,

Each of the two definitions: </font>
  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Premises Wiring (System)</font>
  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Outlet</font>
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">is self contained.

Premises Wiring (System) uses the one word term "outlet". In the definition of Premises Wiring (System), when you come to the word "outlet(s)", insert the definition of Outlet.
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Whip: Local trade slang for any flexible wiring method factory installed on utilization equipment that must be hardwired to the premise wiring system.

IMO the premise wiring system extends to the point the factory installed and listed equipment starts.

If the DW had a factory installed FMC whip IMO the outlet would be the box I connect that whip to. If there was no whip IMO the outlet would be the JB on the DW that I connect my cable to.

If I happened to bring a factory installed 'whip' directly into a panel I would say the panel is the outlet for that utilization equipment.
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

There is another possibility to this "whip" discussion: not every circuit has an outlet. That would mean one method of appliance connection does away with the need for an outlet.

Picture an installation (no box, disconnect, etc.) of a water heater, HVAC air handler, etc. where we simply sleeve a length of the circuit cable outside the wall. Is there an outlet?

We might have to choose among (a) the appliance junction box is the outlet, (b) where the cable emerges from the building finish is the outlet, or (c) there is no outlet (or spoon).


Let's see what this train of thought "whips" up!
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by LarryFine:
Picture an installation (no box, disconnect, etc.) of a water heater, HVAC air handler, etc. where we simply sleeve a length of the circuit cable outside the wall. Is there an outlet?
Click to expand...
Larry in that case I say the outlet is in the j-box contained in the water heater.

An outlet is not a specific item, IMO it is just a point where the premise system connects to the utilization equipment.
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Larry in your case it would be A.Since the whip is only an extension of the wiring system and the actual contact point is the J box ,within the appliance from which power is waiting to be utilized.
Jeff I bet you never thought that this would push 400 posts ;)
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

A tip of the hat to Wachowskian Metaphysics. :D

But, sticking to what all of us here CAN bend, i.e., the path of the current coming to the point that it is taken to supply utilization equipment, in my opinion, the wiring coming to the water heater or the disposal, both of which are hard wired by field assembled installer supplied materials, is part of the Premises Wiring (System) until it becomes internal to the appliance.

The Outlet is at the junction box on the appliance.

Charlie B:. To put outlets at the point at which the wiring emerges from the wall is forgetting the obvious. . .many occupancies have NO hollow walls within which to install wiring.

Edit spelling - Al

[ October 25, 2005, 12:26 PM: Message edited by: al hildenbrand ]
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by charlie b:
But consider a lab space in a medical building. There are horizontal surfaces on which electronic test equipment is placed. The equipment is hard wired to an outlet box in the wall. The wire from the box to the equipment (the "whip," if I understand your term) is provided by the equipment manufacturer. You connect the whip to the wires inside the box, using wire nuts.

Would you still say the box is not the outlet? Would you still say that the whip is part of the premises wiring system?

I would not. I think that the premises wiring system must necessarily end before you leave the wall or ceiling. But since I have not installed a wide variety of electrical stuff, I may be missing something here.
Click to expand...
You raise another scenario that illustrates the importance that the Article 100 Definition of Outlet's use of the word "point" is deliberately not described in terms of materials of an assembly.

The "point" has to be the boundary, for all practical purposes, between what is covered by NEC, and what is covered by other standards.

Iwire's statement
I am not permitted to modify the listed wiring so the whip must be premise wiring or it is not covered by the NEC.
Click to expand...
is real interesting. He is talking about a field assembled whip, assembled by the installer. The factory supplied whip accompanying an appliance cannot be modified without voiding the listing. "The listing" is a NRTL (nationally recognized testing laboratory) creation, is it not? The NEC doesn't DO listing. The NEC tells us to use listed materials, etc., the NEC doesn't tell us to do the listing.
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

The POINT is where CURRENT is TAKEN from the wiring system.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top