Big oops ... need suggestions

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Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Old John McQuillan, a 3rd generation plumbing contractor, sat me down when I bragged I was going to be an Electrical Contractor.

He attempted to impress on me that I was going into a perilous area of economics.

"No matter how careful you are, your bids will always be 3% low, and every so often a job will come along that will eat your lunch."
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

I'd call the inspectors, and give them a run-down. If they'd like to be difficult, here's the easiest, funniest, best way to do it: install the smallest (I think SqD makes one 6" x 8" or so) panel you can find, directly over the switch to the ceiling fan.

"There you go, the new outlet is AFCI-protected."

What's the NFPA's fax number again? I need to write a proposal. :roll:
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

"No matter how careful you are, your bids will always be 3% low, and every so often a job will come along that will eat your lunch.............

Sad but true as true can be.There was a time not all that long ago that being an electrician was something well special ,in association to blue collar workers.That was before the construction fall out in the early 80`s.I made then almost what our guys get today and that
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

"No matter how careful you are, your bids will always be 3% low, and every so often a job will come along that will eat your lunch.............

Sad but true as true can be.There was a time not all that long ago that being an electrician was something well special ,in association to blue collar workers.That was before the construction fall out in the early 80`s.I made then almost what our guys get today and that`s what 22 years or so ago.About 10 years ago the new construction took off like a bat out of H _ _ L .EC`s were hiring bodies .arms,legs and only some had a clue.Employees are in abundance and the pay rate show it.EC`s are paying help less and getting the same work done.The pace here is unreal .2 man crews flat rating are doing 5 some 7 homes a week.Is the quality there NO.Does the EC care NO. House wired get paid move to the next one They have no pride in the finished product.The rough in part is going to be covered they say :mad:
Lets see who retains their job when it falls again.The guys that do great work and have paid their dues.Or the hack that creates a romex bomb when it is wired. :eek: KABOOM !!!!
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Jeff, install the ceiling fan over your box and buy a swag kit, plug it in to the switched receptacle.

This may not be the owners prefered installation, but it will work and eliminate the need for the AFCI.

Roger
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by jeff43222:
Originally posted by paul:
Code says any new outlets in a bedroom must be AFCI-protected
Click to expand...
Where?
Click to expand...
NEC 210.12(B), 2002 and 2005 editions.
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I don't see the word any in 210.12(B). I see the word all. It also doesn't say outlets must be AFCI. It says all branch circuits supplying outlets.

Now you've got a Square D panel and a multi-wire homerun. 90.4 3rd paragraph:
This Code may require new products, constructions, or materials that may not yet be available at the time the CODE is adopted. (Sq D 2-pole arc fault breakers). In such an event, the AHJ may permit the use of products, constructions, or materials that comply with the most recent previous edition of this Code adopted by the jurisdiction.

So, as in the first part of 90.4, call the inspector and ask for a waiver on the AFCI. We're talking about a common sense here. No inspector is going to make you tear apart sheetrock in order to run one HR for a ceiling fan. Especially when 99.9% of the houses out there DO NOT have AFCI protection in the bedrooms.
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by paul:
No inspector is going to make you tear apart sheetrock in order to run one HR for a ceiling fan. Especially when 99.9% of the houses out there DO NOT have AFCI protection in the bedrooms.
Click to expand...
Wanna bet?? :)
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Can he risk not making you do it ? A fire will cost him his job and maybe even prison if anyone dies.Things like this are getting done by handymen and covered by fake bills that say something like painted bedroom
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by paul:
Originally posted by jeff43222:
Originally posted by paul:
Code says any new outlets in a bedroom must be AFCI-protected
Click to expand...
Where?
Click to expand...
NEC 210.12(B), 2002 and 2005 editions.
Click to expand...
I don't see the word any in 210.12(B). I see the word all. It also doesn't say outlets must be AFCI. It says all branch circuits supplying outlets.

I'm not sure "any" vs "all" makes a difference in meaning. Both usages result in the same thing. And any (all) outlets that are AFCI-protected will necessarily get such protection from a circuit breaker that protects the entire circuit, so the result is also the same. Hair splitting over word usage is all well and good, but not if it doesn't make any difference.

Now you've got a Square D panel and a multi-wire homerun. 90.4 3rd paragraph:
This Code may require new products, constructions, or materials that may not yet be available at the time the CODE is adopted. (Sq D 2-pole arc fault breakers). In such an event, the AHJ may permit the use of products, constructions, or materials that comply with the most recent previous edition of this Code adopted by the jurisdiction.

I think the key word is "require." I have yet to see anything in the code that mandates using a Sq.D two-pole arc-fault breaker. My reading of 90.4 makes me think that an AHJ waiver can be obtained only if it's impossible to meet code, not just very inconvenient. In this case, if there were no arc-fault breakers available on the market, a waiver would be feasible.

So, as in the first part of 90.4, call the inspector and ask for a waiver on the AFCI. We're talking about a common sense here. No inspector is going to make you tear apart sheetrock in order to run one HR for a ceiling fan. Especially when 99.9% of the houses out there DO NOT have AFCI protection in the bedrooms.

No way would they give a waiver for something like this. Yes, I have an existing multiwire circuit in a panel far away from the new outlet. Yes, a standard AFCI breaker won't work on the circuit. Yes, Sq.D doesn't make a two-pole breaker. Does that mean it's impossible to meet the code? Nope. It's just a hassle.

Al suggested installing a small subpanel for the multiwire circuit next to the main panel and using a two-pole breaker from a manufacturer that makes them. Yeah, it's a pain to have to go to all this trouble for a ceiling fan, and yeah, it costs more money, but it sounds to me like a solution that would make this installation code-compliant. Ergo, no waiver would be granted.

And Al's right about inspectors requiring drywall to be ripped open. He and I work in the same area, and he is well versed in how the inspectors around here do things.
Click to expand...
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Jeff if you recite 210 12 B , don`t you think that you should include all of what is written in the 02 bible.
All branch circuits that supply 125-volt,single phase.15 and 20 ampere outlets installed in dwelling units shall be protected by an arc - fault circuit interupter listed to provide protection of the entire circuit.
This is a wording change were as the wording covered only receptacle outlets . 100 tells us what an outlet is.A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization
equiptment.
So the 02 tells us that all OUTLETS in a circuit in a bed room must be afci protected.Outlets constitute receptacles, switches , smokes and yes ceiling
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

I'm not sure I understand the point you are making here.

I don't know how receptacles became a point of contention since I never mentioned installing them. The only thing I did that had anything to do with a receptacle was remove a switch from an existing receptacle. The installation I discussed in my original post involved a new ceiling fan outlet, not a receptacle outlet.

The AFCI requirement was triggered by this new installation of the ceiling fan outlet in the bedroom, since all the other outlets were installed in 1989, when the house was built. The ceiling fan I put in was a new outlet on an existing circuit. So the circuit I put the ceiling fan on had to be protected with an AFCI breaker to be in compliance with 210.12(B).

[ October 15, 2005, 12:14 AM: Message edited by: jeff43222 ]
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Jeff the outlets you seem to be pushing are receptacle outlets when in fact the term outlet goes beyond only receptacle outlets.Bring lighting outlets,smoke detector outlets and yes ceiling fan outlets too ;) into this conversation
since they all constitute outlets.
I guess a situation like this could be taken care of quite easily if afci receptacles were readily available. ;) Load side the part of the circuit that has been changed and done deal.
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

If it were code-compliant to install some kind of outlet-style AFCI device for new outlets, it would be nice, but the code requires the whole circuit to have AFCI protection, plus such a device doesn't exist as far as I know.

I initially didn't realize that the code required that a whole circuit of any outlet touching a bedroom have AFCI protection, but I knew that would be the effect anyway since the only way to AFCI-protect an outlet is with an AFCI breaker.
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Seems the choices are down to 2.
1. run new hr run to kids bed room or at least to the fan (perhaps a remote control one).2. add that panel next to old panel and install 2 pole afci.Problem got started because you started without knowing what was in the panel.We all goof sometimes.What if maybe you could get some of that load off the bed room/bath.Perhaps the bath receptacles.Or change the bulbs to the florecent replacements.There is no cheap legal way out. :(
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

I'm going with Option 2. A new HR to the kid's bedroom would be way too much trouble. I don't see any easy way to shift the loads around, either.

I definitely screwed up on this one. I should have checked the panel first so I would know what I was getting into. I won't make that mistake again.
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

You might check you state/county specialty codes. In Oregon, the Building Codes Division has addressed this very delima and doesn't require AFCI protection of devices added during a remodel. :D
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

"In Oregon, the Building Codes Division has addressed this very delima and doesn't require AFCI protection of devices added during a remodel. "
Where does that place them if a fire breaks out and kills someone and its proved that an afci would have saved that life? Bad idea to back off of safety devices.

[ October 15, 2005, 11:01 AM: Message edited by: jimwalker ]
 
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