Big oops ... need suggestions

[hbiss]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Where does that place them if a fire breaks out and kills someone and its proved that an afci would have saved that life? Bad idea to back off of safety devices.

Then why not require all houses to be retrofitted and rewired if necessary with AFCI's?

You have to draw the line here someplace. If it is going to cost $1000 to install an $80 ceiling fan that's ridiculous.

This is probably the only part of the code that requires that complete systems be upgraded when an addition is made. You can even add to K&T. I think we can blame this on the fact that this section is written before the technology is there to reasonably do what it requires under all conditions.

-Hal

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by jeff43222:
I did like that idea, but the homeowner vetoed it. Some people are just so picky.

Ah, so now you have options. My $50 option was vetoed, so I guess now you can charge the difference between the $50 and $500 options.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Jeff (Magoo),

The Minnesota Electrical Licensing and Inspection Department (formerly the MN State Board of Elec.), at the beginning of MN enforcement of 2002 NEC 210.12 way back in July of 2002, came out with the statement that Any new outlet in an existing dwelling bedroom must have AFCI protection per 210.12.

There had been concern that we might follow the Vermont model that required AFCIs on all circuits on a service upgrade. . .or some other possibility. . .there was also hope that MN would waive enforcement of 210.12. . .you never know until you hear the exact language of the new enforcement guidelines.

When I need to add an outlet, for any reason inside a bedroom, the thing I find I do, is I fall back into thinking about the outlet install in the room and overlook the branch circuit, especially when I don't have to run a new one.

Jeff, your sharing this mistake is highly instructive for me, as investigating the panel as part of a small project would add a significant amount of time to the bid process. I would be inclined, until you shared this story, to think I had enough information by glancing at the panel to verify that the panel would accept the badly limited and inconsistent choices the manufacturers of AFCIs give us.

Edit to clarify (Magoo) - Al

[ October 15, 2005, 11:46 AM: Message edited by: al hildenbrand ]

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

"Then why not require all houses to be retrofitted and rewired if necessary with AFCI's?"

Because they are grandfather in.But when we elect to add new things change.Once did a fire job and only damage was one run of #12-2.That was maybe a 1 hour problem and $100.But the house was very old and the service and panel was a disaster.30 amp screw in fuses and such.No panel covers and real fire hazard.The fire was because of overloaded circuit on a 30.Was surprised the insurance company picked up the total bill for new service.
When we start replacing and adding then we must bring whats involved up to code.
Granted in this case adding a fan, very little is being changed and the rest of the house will be just as dangerious as before.But it must be installed to code at time of change.We live in a law suit world.EC as well as inspectors must watch there own a$$

 

[hbiss]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

But when we elect to add new things change.

I don't agree. An example would be 394.10 that allows you to add onto K&T, a wiring method not normally allowed anymore for obvious reasons. Why not at least require that any new addition be wired to current standards?

Like I said I think the writers jumped the gun on AFCI requirements.

But it must be installed to code at time of change.We live in a law suit world.EC as well as inspectors must watch there own a$$

Agreed. That's why the code has to be able to be complied with. That's also why states have modified the NEC AFCI requirements and by the way I believe they would be exempt from any liability in doing so. They can adopt the NEC any way they want.

-Hal

 

[LarryFine]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by allenwayne:
Outlets constitute receptacles, switches , smokes and yes ceiling

Actually, switches are excluded form this list, as they control, but do not utilize, electricity.


I do have a couple of alternate suggestion for Jeff:


1) Find the load end of the 3-wire circuit, where the neutral splits, and place a 2-circuit sub-panel there. If you're lucky, this might be in a wall that one side isn't exposed to view.

The 3-wire cable is now a feeder, and the circuit officially originates at this new panel, where one or two (if you are likely to add another fan or something on the other circuit) AFCI breakers can be located.

If the load end of the 3-wire cable is in a receptacle (too low on the wall), you can extend it up by splicing within the box. Replace it with a deep old-work box if you need to, or blank off this box and replace the receptacle with a second box.


2) This may be the simplest solution of all: try to find another circuit in the attic (maybe an exhaust fan or such), one that is not fed via a 3-wire citcuit, and place that circuit on the required AFCI breaker.

You can still use the same 3-wire between the original switch box and the new fan box. Feed the power to the fan box, feed the switch/dimmer combo with the white, and return on the black and red.

The original wires to the switch can be capped off in the switch box, or even in the box the split-switched receptacle is in to make more room in the switch box, because you can clip the wires where they enter the switch box.

(in this case, clip them at then receptacle, too, so nobody can unwittingly reenergize them in the future)

 

[peter d]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by LarryFine:
Actually, switches are excluded form this list, as they control, but do not utilize, electricity.

Uh oh......

 

[LarryFine]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by hbiss:
But when we elect to add new things change.

I don't agree. An example would be 394.10 that allows you to add onto K&T, a wiring method not normally allowed anymore for obvious reasons. Why not at least require that any new addition be wired to current standards?

But that is a requirement, and there are standards that apply to such an extension, such as using GFCI protection and not interconnecting the EGC between receptacles.

Plus, even in this case, new receptacles or other outlets in bedrooms added to existing K&T installations do require this same AFCI protection. AFCI's, just like GFCI's, do not depend on the EGC for operation.

 

[mark32]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Perhaps I should start a new thread about this, but at what point do you guys decide to pull a permit? Years ago when I did residential work I don't think my boss ever pulled a permit when we installed ceiling fans, including new boxes and switches.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by LarryFine:
Actually, switches are excluded form this list, as they control, but do not utilize, electricity.

Larry,

Did you get a chance to follow this one? I think the NEC says otherwise, as I lay out, starting on page three.

 

[roger]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Al, you know better than that.

Roger

 

[peter d]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Yeah, just when we were all starting to forget about switched dining room receptacles, you had to bring that one back.

[ October 15, 2005, 08:49 PM: Message edited by: peter d ]

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Not pulling permits is a dead end street.Sooner or later something goes wrong and you will be in court.Liabilty insurance might refuse to pay and fines as well as loosing license are all outcomes as well as prison if anyone dies.Our game has changed lots in last 20 years.Gone are the good old days of just do it ,nobody will know.Can you afford the price tag ? Can you live with yourself if you kill some little kid with your uninspected work ?

 

[LarryFine]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by al hildenbrand:

Originally posted by LarryFine:
Actually, switches are excluded form this list, as they control, but do not utilize, electricity.

Larry,

Did you get a chance to follow this one? I think the NEC says otherwise, as I lay out, starting on page three.

I read that third page, but not the entire thread. Even according to your definitions and arguments, I find a switch does not qualify as utilization equipment.

I have no disagreement that breakers and switches fall within the definition of "wiring system"; that's not in dispute. However, when you say that a breaker "takes" power from a conductor, and then "returns" it to the circuit, I have to disagree.

To really split hairs, since the breakers and switches are mounted in enclosures, the electricity passing through them devices never leaves their boxes, so no power is supplied (except for illuminated switches) to the device.

That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it!

 

[LarryFine]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

What's more, let's use a couple of examples:

A switch that controls a load within the bedroom will be on the AFCI-protected circuit anyway.

However, an exterior luminaire that is not on the bedroom circuit, but is controlled by a switch by a bedroom window or exterior door, need not be on an AFCI-protected circuit.

 

[ronaldrc]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

I would do like Peter suggested see how much load the red and black multi. circuit would pull with their full loads combined, if not over 16 amps. make them one circuit, tie them together with a wire nut and put it on your AFCI.

Don't forget there is no maximum amount duplex recpts. per circuit in a dwelling or residence for bed rooms.

Answer #1-(2 Investigate the MW circuit and its loading and see if you can combine it.I
don't think combining loads will work very well. The circuit in question powers everything in the baby's bedroom, plus everything in one bathroom, and some lights and the receptacles in another bathroom. never mind.

Works sometimes but not with bath rooms.

Rewire or two pole.

[ October 16, 2005, 01:03 AM: Message edited by: ronaldrc ]

 

[al hildenbrand]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Larry,

a switch does not qualify as utilization equipment.

I agree that a snap switch is not utilization equipment (UE). The load the switch controls is the UE.

Look again at the definition of Premises Wiring (System). The switch is a controller. The current in the controller is not in the Premises Wiring (System).

 

[allenwayne]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Larry if you control electricty with a switch then IMHO you are utilizing that same electricity.IE: switched receptacle , ceiling fan,ceiling light.To say that a switch doesn`t utilize electricity is like saying a faucet doesn`t utilize water since there is a cut off valve that really controls the flow of the water in a sink.Since there is a circuit breaker that really controls and utilizes electricity.
In 96 cycle when the code had receptacle outlet in a bedroom had to have afci protection,in that cycle I would agree a switch that didn`t eminate from that same room didn`t have to be afci protected.But when 02 cycle came around all that changed.To say that a switch in a bedroom that doesn`t eminate from that same bedroom doesn`t have to be afci protected,is like saying a smoke detector that starts from another area doesn`t have to be afci protected
You can`t have a double edged sword and expect not to get cut from both edges

 

[electricmanscott]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by jimwalker:
Can you live with yourself if you kill some little kid with your uninspected work ?

Wow. Could you over dramatize this just a little more? :roll:

If your work is that bad that someone will die if it is not inspected you might as well just hang up the pliers.

Also, switches are NOT outlets and are NOT required to be afci protected. You can wire a bedroom closet light or an outside light from a non afci protected circuit and have the switch in the bedroom.

[ October 16, 2005, 08:20 AM: Message edited by: electricmanscott ]

 

[electricmanscott]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by ronaldrc:
I would do like Peter suggested see how much load the red and black multi. circuit would pull with their full loads combined, if not over 16 amps. make them one circuit, tie them together with a wire nut and put it on your AFCI.

What is 16 amps the determining factor here?