Big oops ... need suggestions

[jwelectric]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Is it possible for a circuit breaker or a fuse holder or even a fused switch to be an outlet????

 

[al hildenbrand]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Mike,

Isn't that interesting? Article 100 Definition of Power Outlet.

 

[roger]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

The definition of Power Outlet simply includes items that on their own may or may not be an outlet, but may be integral to this specifc device.

As far as "Luminaire Outlet", see "Lighting Outlet".

Roger

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Two scenarios

I have an outside light that has a switch in the bedroom. This light is fed to the fixture box from a circuit that does not enter the bedroom and a two conductor is used to drop to the switch. One conductor hot to the switch and the other is the switch leg back to the light. There is no grounded (neutral) in the switch box.
Will this switch require Arc-Fault protection?

Now let?s wire it a different way.

Same light fed from the outside circuit but this time I bring the circuit to the switch. The grounded (neutral) conductor is in the switch box and I break the phase conductor for the switch and feed the light.
Will this circuit need Arc-fault protection now?

 

[JES2727]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

jw,
You've brought up the same point that I was about to mention. Does the presence of a grounded conductor make a difference? As I understand it, if you have a hot & a neutral in an outlet box with a blank cover on it it's still considered an outlet. I have always considered a switch as an outlet, regardless of the presence of the grounded conductor. But it never really mattered before this arc-fault issue. Then again, the arc-fault requirements are not enforced here in the Garden State, so it still doesn't matter to me (yet). I'll let you guys sort this out and I'll just keep it in mind for future reference.

John

 

[al hildenbrand]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by Roger:
. . . see "Lighting Outlet".

Thanks Roger. I was moving too fast, distracted by the gasket sealer that was applied and waiting out in the drive.

I still maintain that it is important that neither switch, luminaire, nor receptacle are included in the definition of Outlet.

So, even though the location, that a switch is, is not called an outlet, specifically, as you say, a "switch outlet", the definition of Outlet doesn't exclude switch (or receptacle or luminaire). If it is not excluded, it is allowed.

More so, the definition of Premises Wiring (System) is explicit to state that the current inside a controller (switch) is not in the Premises Wiring (System). The insertion of the controller, breaking apart the Premises Wiring (System) takes the utilization current out of the Premises Wiring (System), through the switch.

Turning to my other point, Power Outlet:

What about the handy box that this cover is mounted too, does not make it an outlet, a Power Outlet, when supplying a little bitty trailer?

 

[al hildenbrand]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

John & JW,

I think you are talking about the heart of the issue, the question, as I see it.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Mike (JW),

I started off kicking around the very scenarios you raise. While this is a lot of thread. . .way too much cyber-ink. . . this post summarizes the references to my developing idea on "switch installed at an outlet". The three links on that page are in chronological order from oldest. That page is in the middle of the most recent thread that I have risen to droning on about this.

 

[charlie b]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Mike (JW), neither of your scenarios would require AFCI protection, as neither involves an outlet in a bedroom. I don't plan on making any attempts to prove that point, as I have already made my views known. Anyone can look up the old discussions, if they wish.

As to the phrase "power outlet," you cannot infer anything at all from the fact that that phrase contains the single word "outlet." This is a two-word phrase that is made up of two individual words. But it is the phrase that is defined, and the definition does not fall back on the individual definitions of the individual words. I am saying this in the same way I would say that a "chairman" need not be male. That word contains within itself two separate words, but you cannot arrive at its meaning by first looking up each of those two words. I have served as chairman of two organizations, and in neither case was I permitted to sit, while "chairing" the meetings.

[ October 17, 2005, 11:11 AM: Message edited by: charlie b ]

 

[al hildenbrand]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by charlie b:
As to the phrase "power outlet," you cannot infer anything at all from the fact that that phrase contains the single word "outlet." This is a two-word phrase that is made up of two individual words. But it is the phrase that is defined, and the definition does not fall back on the individual definitions of the individual words. I am saying this in the same way I would say that a "chairman" need not be male. That word contains within itself two separate words, but you cannot arrive at its meaning by first looking up each of those two words. I have served as chairman of two organizations, and in neither case was I permitted to sit, while "chairing" the meetings.

Seems to me the same logic applies to Receptacle Outlet and Lighting Outlet, with respect to Outlet.

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

We sometimes get involved in our own opinions that we just can?t see the forest for the trees.

I am one that is very guilty of doing just that as was proved to me in Florida last week.

What is happing with this Arc-Fault debate is that no one is looking at the definiation of an outlet or they are not comprehending what is being said.

There is a lot of confusion on just what is an outlet and I see a lot of the thinking of receptacles is and switches are not. Let?s just look at them first. What are they?
They are devices.

Device. A unit of an electrical system that is intended to carry or control but not utilize electric energy.

Equipment. A general term including material, fittings, devices,

Weather it is a receptacle or a switch has nothing to do with weather it is an outlet or not so let?s try to resolve this with out the device being used.

Just what is an outlet?

Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.

By the very definition a receptacle is not an outlet until something is plugged into it. It is just a device that is sitting there like a ?Disconnecting Means, A device? doing nothing.

When I read the definition of ?outlet? I only see the words a point at which current is taken to supply equipment.
And yes I will argue that a panel, fused disconnect, switch, receptacle, 4 square box, or any where else that CURRENT is taken to supply equipment is an outlet.

Shucks I will even argue that the supply store where we buy all this stuff is a supply OUTLET.

Most of you have learn by now I will argue just about any thing.

A switch that has a neutral is an outlet and in a dwelling is required to be protected by arc-fault in my state.

[ October 17, 2005, 11:59 AM: Message edited by: jwelectric ]

 

[allenwayne]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

The Smoke alarms located outside of the bedroom do not have to be on an AFCI circuit just because they have to be interconnected

 

[roger]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by allenwayne:
The Smoke alarms located outside of the bedroom do not have to be on an AFCI circuit just because they have to be interconnected

Roger

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

I agree that they should call it an outlet or not an outlet with or with out the neutral. I haven?t seen anything on paper stating this I have only heard what the inspectors in one of the inspector classes had to say.
I will shoot an e-mail to DOI and ask for an answer just because I don?t have anything concrete to stand on.

All that said that don?t mean that we can?t keep going here until that magic 300 rolls around. We don?t need but 207 more.

To help get us there I will take either side necessary.

Shucks if you want me to I will even argue that snow does not make the ground wet!!!

 

[LarryFine]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by jwelectric:
Two scenarios

I have an outside light that has a switch in the bedroom. This light is fed to the fixture box from a circuit that does not enter the bedroom and a two conductor is used to drop to the switch. One conductor hot to the switch and the other is the switch leg back to the light. There is no grounded (neutral) in the switch box.
Will this switch require Arc-Fault protection?

Now let?s wire it a different way.

Same light fed from the outside circuit but this time I bring the circuit to the switch. The grounded (neutral) conductor is in the switch box and I break the phase conductor for the switch and feed the light.
Will this circuit need Arc-fault protection now?

I say "no" in both instances.

Originally posted by al hildenbrand:

What about the handy box that this cover is mounted too, does not make it an outlet, a Power Outlet, when supplying a little bitty trailer? [/QB]

Al, this device is not a power outlet at all. It is a fused switch. If you had a switch and receptacle, then the box in which it is mounted would be an outlet.

Originally posted by jwelectric:
Just what is an outlet?

Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.

By the very definition a receptacle is not an outlet until something is plugged into it. It is just a device that is sitting there like a ?Disconnecting Means, A device? doing nothing.

It's not the device that is the outlet, it's the box. If you remove a switch and replace it with a receptacle, you have made the box an outlet.

A receptacle is mounted in an outlet box, and it's an outlet box whether the receptacle is in use or not. A switch is mounted in a switch box, and it's a switch box whether there's a bulb in the fixture or not.

 

[electricmanscott]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Here is something I looked up just for Mike. It's from Electrical Contactor Magazine. Take it for what its worth.

The Ins and Outs of AFCI Protection
by Mark C. Ode


With this new change applying to all 125V, single-phase, 15 and 20A outlets within a dwelling unit bedroom, determining where AFCI protection applied was not as simple and easy to accomplish. Branch circuits for smoke detectors, small window air conditioners, ceiling paddle fans, refrigerators, heaters, and lighting units (luminaires), as well as other outlets throughout the bedroom, were now required to be AFCI protected. Questions were raised about whether luminaires in walk-in closets required AFCI protection, which were easily answered by supplying it from a bedroom circuit already AFCI protected. Since switches are devices, not outlets, a switch located in a bedroom but supplying luminaire(s) located outside the bedroom area, such as security lighting or for bathroom lighting, would not require AFCI protection.

2005 NEC.





About This Author

Mark C. Ode

ODE is staff engineering associate at Underwriters Laboratories Inc., in Research Triangle Park, N.C.

Phone: 919-549-1726
Email: mark.c.ode@us.ul.com


<< Back | << Start a new search

See more results in:
Products Manufacturer Directory




Home | News | Products | Editorial Archives | Research
Advertiser Info | About Us | NECA Links

Copyright 2003 ELECTRICAL CONTRACTOR. All Rights Reserved.



See more results in:

Products

Manufacturer Directory

 

[roger]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Mike, I have heard this was Raliegh's stand through our local inspectors.

Let me know what DOI says if you would.

Roger

 

[roger]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Thanks Scott.

Roger

 

[iwire]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by jwelectric:
A switch that has a neutral is an outlet and in a dwelling is required to be protected by arc-fault in my state.

Not true if you still follow the NEC.

I gave up on this subject with Al H. as he is obviously obsessed with this issue.

Often the correct answer is the obvious and simple answer.

An outlet supplies utilization equipment, a switch supples premises wiring.

It's that easy, don't try to make it rocket science.

Bob

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by Larry Fine
It?s not the device that is the outlet, it's the box. If you remove a switch and replace it with a receptacle, you have made the box an outlet.

A receptacle is mounted in an outlet box, and it's an outlet box whether the receptacle is in use or not. A switch is mounted in a switch box, and it's a switch box whether there's a bulb in the fixture or not.

Your statement is a double standard. Should I agree that a switch is not an outlet you just convinced me that a receptacle is not an outlet at the same time or that both are outlets.

Your statement ?It?s not the device that is the outlet, it's the box.? is one of the best arguments that a box with anything in it is an outlet that I have heard.

Your statement ?If you remove a switch and replace it with a receptacle, you have made the box an outlet.? is saying that the receptacle is the outlet when in fact the receptacle is nothing more that a device just as the switch.

Your statement ?A receptacle is mounted in an outlet box, and it's an outlet box whether the receptacle is in use or not. A switch is mounted in a switch box, and it's a switch box whether there's a bulb in the fixture or not? is mandating that two different type of boxes is required. This is not true. I can use the same box for either the switch or receptacle.

The bottom line is that no box is needed for an outlet. This outlet can be in a raceway if that raceway is approved for splices and joints. Have you ever seen a row of lights connected end to end and the ballast wired to the circuit on the inside? There is where the direct connection to the light takes place as outlined in the definition of lighting outlet thus no box.

Reread the definition of outlet:
Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.
How do you get that to be an outlet that either a box or receptacle is required to be present?