Big oops ... need suggestions

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jwelectric

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by roger:
Mike, I have heard this was Raliegh's stand through our local inspectors.

Let me know what DOI says if you would.

Roger
I think Scott just did it for me except the neutral thing.

Thanks Scott, I have searched for that article for the past couple of months. I was looking in the wrong places.
:)
 

charlie b

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Staff member
Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

This may be a bit of a risk, but I will try one more time.

We are neither mathematicians nor physicists. Sometimes we would be well served by being more precise in our use of words and phrases. But we need not take on the view of a mathematician or a physicist, when considering the word "point" in the definition of outlet. For example, in the view of a mathematician, a sphere that is one billionth of a millimeter in diameter does not constitute a "point."

For our profession, it does not matter whether we are talking about a box, or about a point of connection that does not take place within a box, or about a device that is to be mounted within a box. If I wanted to be as precise as my nature might allow, I might say that the "point" at which current is taken from a receptacle to serve utilization equipment is the flat metal pieces internal to the receptacle to which the blades of the plug make contact. But I will not infer from that "truth" that it is the metal pieces, and not the receptacle as a whole, and not the combination of receptacle/box that comprises the "outlet."

For the moment, let's limit our consideration to 2x4 boxes. Let us imagine a 6 inch cube that surrounds a 2x4 box. Let me inform you that within the boundaries of one such cube there are the box, some amount of conduit, some wires, some drywall, some wood framing, and a duplex receptacle. Furthermore, within the boundaries of a second such cube there are the same items, but there is a standard wall switch (e.g., on/off for ceiling lights) instead of the duplex receptacle.

I submit that within the first cube there is an "outlet," as defined in the NEC. I don't care what point you call the "point." The outlet is somewhere within that cube, though the utilization equipment is probably not within the cube. Also, the outlet within that cube does not change in identity from "outlet" to "not an outlet," by virtue of something being plugged into the receptacle, or by virtue of nothing being plugged into the receptacle.

I further submit that within the second cube there is not an "outlet." As a consequence, if I were to design a home with a switch in a bedroom serving a light in a bathroom, with no other loads on that circuit, and without regard to whether the neutral wire makes an appearance in the box that houses the switch, then that circuit will not have AFCI protection, and I would be willing to apply my PE seal to the design drawings.

I am done with this topic.
 

jwelectric

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Now Charlie B has me totally confused as to just what a point is.

He described a sphere as being a point, or a cube that could be a point.

I must question this point that he is making about a point (sphere).

As I was at the office store last eve I saw a pen that was labeled a ball point pen.

During a discussion about a sack race at the fall festival we were trying to decide at which point in the festivities to have this race.

Now that I am totally confused about just what a point is I shall go set in a corner with a hat on my head that comes to a point at the top.

Just what is the point in this post anyway? Looking for that big 300!!!!

:D :D :D

[ October 17, 2005, 05:29 PM: Message edited by: jwelectric ]
 

jimwalker

Senior Member
Location
TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

How about this thought.If i tell you to plug in a tv,radio,computer or whatever ,just where would you do this at ? Hopefully at an outlet intended to supply current.Dont think that switch will be very usefull :D
 

peter d

Senior Member
Location
New England
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Ok, so we can argue semantics all day long. Fine, it's been done before.

At the end of the day, where is the hazard of having an un-AFCI protected light switch in a bedroom? How many fires sources are traced back to switch boxes? Not very many I would suspect. The person smoking in bed is a far greater concern to me.

We can go crazy slicing and dicing the wording down to the last detail. What good does it do?

In my mind, this is a non-issue.
 

al hildenbrand

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

I go away for awhile and look what happens. Back up the thread a bit:
LarryFine originally posted:
Al, this device is not a power outlet at all. It is a fused switch. If you had a switch and receptacle, then the box in which it is mounted would be an outlet.
2005 NEC
Article 100
Power Outlet. An enclosed assembly that may include receptacles, circuit breakers, fuseholders, fused switches, buses, and watt-hour meter mounting means; intended to supply and control power to mobile homes, recreational vehicles, park trailers, or boats or to serve as a means for distributing power required to operate mobile or temporarily installed equipment.

Bold Italics are my emphasis. -Al
 

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Al, it may also include instructions, listing information, packing material, manufacturers advertisements, a certificate for a free drink at Moe's, etc... none of which are any more an outlet than the fused switch that may be included in the assembly.

I will have to go with Mark Ode's take on the matter. :D

Roger

[ October 17, 2005, 07:41 PM: Message edited by: roger ]
 

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Well, if the free drink hinged on my agreeing that a switch is an outlet, and given the fact that I don't do any residential, I will switch to your side. (at least temporarily) :D

Roger
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by charlie b:
Let me inform you that within the boundaries of one such cube there are the box, some amount of conduit, some wires, some drywall, some wood framing, and a duplex receptacle.
You forgot the plate. :D ;)
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by al hildenbrand:
2005 NEC
Article 100
Power Outlet. An enclosed assembly that may include receptacles, circuit breakers, fuseholders, fused switches, buses, and watt-hour meter mounting means; intended to supply and control power to mobile homes, recreational vehicles, park trailers, or boats or to serve as a means for distributing power required to operate mobile or temporarily installed equipment.
Back at ya!
;)

"An enclosed assembly" sounds different from a receptacle in a single-gang box. None of the above describe any environment requiring an AFCI.
 

al hildenbrand

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Roger,
Originally posted by electricmanscott:
Quoting Mark C. Ode:
Since switches are devices, not outlets. . .
It doesn't matter that switches are devices. Receptacles are devices also.

My point doesn't involve devices. I am not saying devices are outlets.

The internal current path in a switch, used to control a utilization equipment load, is not part of the Premises Wiring (System). The utilization equipment current, at the point on the Premises Wiring (System) at which the switch is located, must be taken from the Premises Wiring (System) for the current to go through the switch. That exactly meets the three ingredients in the definition of Outlet.
 

al hildenbrand

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by LarryFine:
None of the above describe any environment requiring an AFCI.
But Larry, the discussion, while having been spurred by the language of 210.12 creating the question, is not about whether an AFCI is required. It is about whether a switch is installed at an outlet or not.

A Power Outlet may be a fused switch.

Charlie made an excellent point, right after I posted the first picture of a fused outlet. . .I'll paraphrase it:

Power Outlet, like Receptacle Outlet or Lighting Outlet, are two word Definitions, not to be confused with the single word definition of Outlet.

That's why I keep pulling this back to Outlet.

And, since premises wiring is part of the definition of Outlet, I pay close attention to the definition of Premises Wiring (System).
 

al hildenbrand

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by LarryFine
It's not the device that is the outlet, it's the box.
That's not exactly right.

The Outlet is the Point on the Premises Wiring. . .that's not a box. The box doesn't carry current. The Premises Wiring does. The box has nothing to do with it, it may or may not be there.
 

al hildenbrand

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by iwire:
I gave up on this subject with Al H. as he is obviously obsessed with this issue. :D
OK. I confess. I have an embaressingly low pleasure threshold. :D :p
 

al hildenbrand

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by iwire:
An outlet supplies utilization equipment, a switch supplies premises wiring.
I agree that this is simple and it is not rocket science.

There are currents in the Premises Wiring (System) that are from equipment in the Premises Wiring (System). I'm thinking, at the moment, of the magnetizing current of the transformer that is used for isolation or stepup / down.

That current is different from a current supplied to utilization equipment. A switch used at some intermediate point along the branch circuit, for the purpose of controlling the utilization equipment, has the utilization equipment current inside the switch taken from that point on the Premises Wiring (System).
 

allenwayne

Senior Member
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

If there is a switched receptacle or a switched f/l or a switched ceiling light cut and dry it have a switch to be considered dwitched as well as afci protected if used in a bedroom of a dwelling unit.Switches go hand in hand with their respective counterpart.
The analogy that utilization current is different than premisis current is totally off the chart

Just goes to show :pUT 100 ELECTRICIANS IN THE SAME ROOM AND EACH AND EVERY ONE BY THE TIME IT IS ALL OVER WILL PROCLAIM THET THEY ARE THE BEST A - #1 ELECTRICIAN IN THE WORLD :D
 
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