Big oops ... need suggestions
- Thread starter jeff43222
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peter d
Senior Member
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- New England
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions
Case closed.
al hildenbrand
Senior Member
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- Minnesota
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- Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions
What is the definition of "wiring device"?
And, more importantly, how does the definition of wiring device not permit the wiring internal to a controller to be outside of the Premises Wiring (System)?
"Wiring device" appears 11 times in the Code and Commentary. I don't see a definition.
Charlie, if you are going to hinge your objection on "wiring devices", as a two word term (as used specifically in Article 100 Definition of Premises Wiring (System), then you don't have a leg to stand on.
What is the definition of "wiring device"?
And, more importantly, how does the definition of wiring device not permit the wiring internal to a controller to be outside of the Premises Wiring (System)?
"Wiring device" appears 11 times in the Code and Commentary. I don't see a definition.
- Location
- Illinois
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- retired electrician
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions
Don
A controller is a device. A device does not utilize electric energy. An outlet is a point where the electrical energy supplies utilization equipment. How can a controller be an outlet? The electrical energy does not leave to wiring system to supply utilization equipment at a controller or switch.
Don
al hildenbrand
Senior Member
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- Minnesota
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- Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions
Don,
Consider a branch circuit that goes to a switch at the door of a space. The switch controls a single luminaire on the ceiling of the space.
At a Lighting Outlet, current is taken (from) the premises wiring, the current is supplying utilization equipment (luminaire).
The current in the switch (controller) is not in the premises wiring by the last sentence in definition of Premises Wiring (System). For the current to be in the controller, it has to be taken from the premises wiring.
A controller (switch) inserted along the premises wiring is a point on the premises wiring that the current is taken. This is the same current for the same utilization equipment, the luminaire. The only reason the current is in the switch is because the current is to supply the utilization equipment.
Don,
Electrical energy is not part of the definition of outlet. It is current.
Consider a branch circuit that goes to a switch at the door of a space. The switch controls a single luminaire on the ceiling of the space.
At a Lighting Outlet, current is taken (from) the premises wiring, the current is supplying utilization equipment (luminaire).
The current in the switch (controller) is not in the premises wiring by the last sentence in definition of Premises Wiring (System). For the current to be in the controller, it has to be taken from the premises wiring.
A controller (switch) inserted along the premises wiring is a point on the premises wiring that the current is taken. This is the same current for the same utilization equipment, the luminaire. The only reason the current is in the switch is because the current is to supply the utilization equipment.
jeff43222
Senior Member
- Location
- Minneapolis, Minnesota
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions
I can't believe a thread I started has actually eclipsed George's "Pimp My Ride" thread. I think this thread might also have the highest percentage of posts from Minneapolis.
[ October 18, 2005, 10:19 PM: Message edited by: jeff43222 ]
I can't believe a thread I started has actually eclipsed George's "Pimp My Ride" thread. I think this thread might also have the highest percentage of posts from Minneapolis.
[ October 18, 2005, 10:19 PM: Message edited by: jeff43222 ]
- Location
- Illinois
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- retired electrician
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions
Don
You can't have one without the other.
But it is not taken to the utilization equipment at that point. The outlet is where the current is taken to the utilization equipment, not where it is controlled.
Don
al hildenbrand
Senior Member
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- Minnesota
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- Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions
When a luminaire has a remote switch, the current that supplies the luminaire (utilization equipment) has to be taken at the point of the controller (switch). The switch does not take the current. The luminaire does, as it is the load, the utilization equipment. The luminaire current is not in the premises wiring and it is going to the luminaire while passing through the switch, its just that an additional piece of premises wiring is part of the path.
Outlet is such an old, old, old and unchanged definition, I think we have become too sophisticated to appreciate its simplicity.
An Outlet is not an inlet, if you will allow me to use the term. I mean, current at the point of an inlet enters and returns from the Premises Wiring (System). This is the Service Point when a poco is involved.
An outlet is the point where current comes out and returns to the Premises Wiring (Sytem).
Current let in vs. current let out. That simple.
The outlet is a point (not THE point) on the premises wiring that current is taken, current that is to supply utilization equipment.
When a luminaire has a remote switch, the current that supplies the luminaire (utilization equipment) has to be taken at the point of the controller (switch). The switch does not take the current. The luminaire does, as it is the load, the utilization equipment. The luminaire current is not in the premises wiring and it is going to the luminaire while passing through the switch, its just that an additional piece of premises wiring is part of the path.
Outlet is such an old, old, old and unchanged definition, I think we have become too sophisticated to appreciate its simplicity.
An Outlet is not an inlet, if you will allow me to use the term. I mean, current at the point of an inlet enters and returns from the Premises Wiring (System). This is the Service Point when a poco is involved.
An outlet is the point where current comes out and returns to the Premises Wiring (Sytem).
Current let in vs. current let out. That simple.
allenwayne
Senior Member
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions
10 pages later and 1000`s of words later and this thread is no closer to an outcome as it was on page 1.
If only 100 was more precise in its interpetation of a switch and does an outlet(recp) fall under the same category.does an outlet constitute a switch and does a switch constitute an outlet.Since the NEC has not taken this miniscule wording screw up and clarified it then it remains a topic that depends on ones viewpoint and oppinion for what one believes is the correct answer.
Take into consideration a stack sw/recep. in a bedroom is it okay to arc-fault the recep but not the switch since it doesn`t utelize power,But it is on the same yoke so isn`t it a part of that outlet and has to be afci`d.Do we go as far as breaking it that far down or we all go home and come to play another day on a different subject
10 pages later and 1000`s of words later and this thread is no closer to an outcome as it was on page 1.
If only 100 was more precise in its interpetation of a switch and does an outlet(recp) fall under the same category.does an outlet constitute a switch and does a switch constitute an outlet.Since the NEC has not taken this miniscule wording screw up and clarified it then it remains a topic that depends on ones viewpoint and oppinion for what one believes is the correct answer.
Take into consideration a stack sw/recep. in a bedroom is it okay to arc-fault the recep but not the switch since it doesn`t utelize power,But it is on the same yoke so isn`t it a part of that outlet and has to be afci`d.Do we go as far as breaking it that far down or we all go home and come to play another day on a different subject
jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions
I am on both sides as long as we keep heading toward the big 300
I am on both sides as long as we keep heading toward the big 300
LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions
I have no problem referring to every component of the circuit part of the premises wiring system; the panel, breaker, circuit conductors, boxes, devices (switches and receptacles), etc.
I'm only saying that outlets are points on a circuit where loads are connected, whether hard-wired (like luminaires, smoke detectors, some stationary appliances, etc.) or plugged in (like lamps, electronics, other appliances, etc.)
This is what I meant when I said that the receptacle makes the box an outlet. The presence of a receptacle or load determines the purpose of the box. Change a switch into a combo, it's now an outlet.
I have no problem referring to every component of the circuit part of the premises wiring system; the panel, breaker, circuit conductors, boxes, devices (switches and receptacles), etc.
I'm only saying that outlets are points on a circuit where loads are connected, whether hard-wired (like luminaires, smoke detectors, some stationary appliances, etc.) or plugged in (like lamps, electronics, other appliances, etc.)
This is exactly what I've been saying. I see no reason to say that a switch is not part of the wiring system, but even if you do, it's not a point where a load is connected; the outlet is.
This is what I meant when I said that the receptacle makes the box an outlet. The presence of a receptacle or load determines the purpose of the box. Change a switch into a combo, it's now an outlet.
al hildenbrand
Senior Member
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- Minnesota
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- Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions
The reason is the Article 100 Definition of Premises Wiring (System). When a switch is used as a Controller, Premises Wiring (System) says the wiring internal to a controller is not part of the premises wiring.
al hildenbrand
Senior Member
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- Minnesota
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- Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions
The current in a switch used as a controller exists to supply utilization equipment. This is a plain old snap switch, a device that does not utilize electric energy. For the purpose of this discussion, think only of this simple device, a snap switch, used as a controller of utilization equipment.
The only current in the switch is to supply utilization equipment. The definition of Outlet does not limit the supply to any configuration, whether immediately within 2" of additional wire nor does it exclude an intermediate section of additional premises wiring.
An outlet is the point on the premises wiring where current is taken. . .and, yes, it is to supply utilization equipment. Taken. The definition does not say "connected".
The current in a switch used as a controller exists to supply utilization equipment. This is a plain old snap switch, a device that does not utilize electric energy. For the purpose of this discussion, think only of this simple device, a snap switch, used as a controller of utilization equipment.
The only current in the switch is to supply utilization equipment. The definition of Outlet does not limit the supply to any configuration, whether immediately within 2" of additional wire nor does it exclude an intermediate section of additional premises wiring.
- Location
- Illinois
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- retired electrician
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions
Al,
Don
Al,
That is not what the code says. The oulet is where the current supplies equipment, not where the current is controlled.
Don
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Service Manager
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions
Oh...my...word.
I'm speechless. I haven't visited this thread since page 5. Someone should have prepared me.
I'd imagine if Mark C. Ode agrees with me, I'll leave it at that.
One note: A receptacle outlet is an outlet at which one or more receptacles is installed. There is a monumental hole in the code if they intended for a switch to be considered an outlet.
Perhaps we should re-define this sucker.
Oh...my...word.
I'm speechless. I haven't visited this thread since page 5. Someone should have prepared me.
I'd imagine if Mark C. Ode agrees with me, I'll leave it at that.
One note: A receptacle outlet is an outlet at which one or more receptacles is installed. There is a monumental hole in the code if they intended for a switch to be considered an outlet.
Perhaps we should re-define this sucker.
jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions
Originally posted by georgestolz:
Oh...my...word.
I'm speechless. I haven't visited this thread since page 5. Someone should have prepared me.
I'd imagine if Mark C. Ode agrees with me, I'll leave it at that.
One note: A receptacle outlet is an outlet at which one or more receptacles is installed. There is a monumental hole in the code if they intended for a switch to be considered an outlet.
Perhaps we should re-define this sucker.
allenwayne
Senior Member
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions
That hole is 11 pages wide and growing
It all depends on how you look at inserting a plug to utilize power and activating a switch to direct power to be utilized.IMO they are one in the same.I`m sure some here have seen a switch that sits there and sizzles In this senario a switch.
That hole is 11 pages wide and growing
It all depends on how you look at inserting a plug to utilize power and activating a switch to direct power to be utilized.IMO they are one in the same.I`m sure some here have seen a switch that sits there and sizzles
In this senario a switch.
al hildenbrand
Senior Member
- Location
- Minnesota
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions
Don,
The location of the utilization equipment is not specified. This leaves an ambiguity. Until the language is changed to some other meaning, presumably less ambiguous, the Definition of Outlet will remain ambiguous as to location of the utilization equipment.
This, alone, has not been an issue with the understanding of a switch being a device, not utilization equipment, and therefore a "switch is not an outlet". . .a very confused result, but, one that has not really been examined carefully in my experience. I have to believe the explanation I am laying out is not original to me, however.
Until the advent of 210.12 in its present form, any discussion could be dismissed as academic at the point it became tiresome, having no bearing on wiring practice.
In 1978 the Article 100 Definition of Premises Wiring (System) appeared for the first time. It appeared with System in parenthesis, as it is now. Controller was used then, as it is now. Controller was a Device then, as it is now. Beginning with the original 1978 Definition of Premises Wiring (System) wiring internal to a controller has by definition not been part of the premises wiring. The current in a snap switch used to control a luminaire has to be taken from the premises wiring at the point that the switch (controller) is connected. This current cannot "supply" the snap switch ("supply" as used by the Outlet definition) because the switch is a Device and cannot utilize energy by definition. But the current, taken at the point on the premises wiring that the controller is, is to supply the luminaire. . .if there were no utilization equipment, there would be no current supplied and the switch would no longer be a controller.
Don,
An outlet is where current is taken, at a point on the premises wiring system, to supply utilization equipment.
The location of the utilization equipment is not specified. This leaves an ambiguity. Until the language is changed to some other meaning, presumably less ambiguous, the Definition of Outlet will remain ambiguous as to location of the utilization equipment.
This, alone, has not been an issue with the understanding of a switch being a device, not utilization equipment, and therefore a "switch is not an outlet". . .a very confused result, but, one that has not really been examined carefully in my experience. I have to believe the explanation I am laying out is not original to me, however.
Until the advent of 210.12 in its present form, any discussion could be dismissed as academic at the point it became tiresome, having no bearing on wiring practice.
In 1978 the Article 100 Definition of Premises Wiring (System) appeared for the first time. It appeared with System in parenthesis, as it is now. Controller was used then, as it is now. Controller was a Device then, as it is now. Beginning with the original 1978 Definition of Premises Wiring (System) wiring internal to a controller has by definition not been part of the premises wiring. The current in a snap switch used to control a luminaire has to be taken from the premises wiring at the point that the switch (controller) is connected. This current cannot "supply" the snap switch ("supply" as used by the Outlet definition) because the switch is a Device and cannot utilize energy by definition. But the current, taken at the point on the premises wiring that the controller is, is to supply the luminaire. . .if there were no utilization equipment, there would be no current supplied and the switch would no longer be a controller.
al hildenbrand
Senior Member
- Location
- Minnesota
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions
Here's a little background quoted from the Codes I have here:
1933. Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply fixtures, lamps, heaters, motors, and current-consuming equipment generally.
1935. Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply fixtures, lamps, heaters, motors, and current-consuming equipment generally.
1940. Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply fixtures, lamps, heaters, motors, and current-consuming equipment generally.
1947. Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply fixtures, lamps, heaters, motors, and current-consuming equipment generally.
1951. Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply fixtures, lamps, heaters, motors, and current-consuming equipment generally.
1953. Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply fixtures, lamps, heaters, motors, and current-consuming equipment generally.
1956. Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.
1959. Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.
1962. Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.
1965. Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.
1968. Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.
1971. Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.
1975. Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.
1978. Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.
1981. Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.
1984. Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.
1987. Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.
1990. Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.
1993. Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.
1996. Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.
1999. Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.
2002. Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.
2005. Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.
What do you think it might look like?Originally posted by GeorgeStolz:
Perhaps we should re-define this sucker.
Here's a little background quoted from the Codes I have here:
1933. Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply fixtures, lamps, heaters, motors, and current-consuming equipment generally.
1935. Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply fixtures, lamps, heaters, motors, and current-consuming equipment generally.
1940. Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply fixtures, lamps, heaters, motors, and current-consuming equipment generally.
1947. Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply fixtures, lamps, heaters, motors, and current-consuming equipment generally.
1951. Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply fixtures, lamps, heaters, motors, and current-consuming equipment generally.
1953. Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply fixtures, lamps, heaters, motors, and current-consuming equipment generally.
1956. Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.
1959. Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.
1962. Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.
1965. Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.
1968. Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.
1971. Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.
1975. Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.
1978. Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.
1981. Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.
1984. Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.
1987. Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.
1990. Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.
1993. Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.
1996. Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.
1999. Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.
2002. Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.
2005. Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions
Allen, did you read Scotts post of 4:04 on 10-17?
If UL's stance is that a switch is not an outlet, all this continued talk is just that.
If you want to read the Whole Artcle from Mark Ode, go to this UL page and scroll down to May 2004.
In addition to the article, UL defines Receptacle (RTDV) as "A female contact device intended to be installed on a wiring system to supply current to utilization equipment", under Snap Switches (WJQR), the term utilization equipment is not used at all.
Roger
Allen, did you read Scotts post of 4:04 on 10-17?
If UL's stance is that a switch is not an outlet, all this continued talk is just that.
If you want to read the Whole Artcle from Mark Ode, go to this UL page and scroll down to May 2004.
In addition to the article, UL defines Receptacle (RTDV) as "A female contact device intended to be installed on a wiring system to supply current to utilization equipment", under Snap Switches (WJQR), the term utilization equipment is not used at all.
Roger
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