Big oops ... need suggestions

al hildenbrand · Oct 19, 2005

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Hi Roger,

Two points:

SNAP SWITCHES (WJQR)

General Use Snap Switches are so constructed that they can be installed in flush device boxes or on outlet box covers or otherwise used in connection with wiring systems recognized by the National Electrical Code.

That is the openning sentence from the Certifications Directory section on snap switches.

Second point: I'm confused about UL being the arbiter here. I thought the NFPA was the Code Authority?

Edit to add last "t" to thought - Al

[ October 19, 2005, 10:52 AM: Message edited by: al hildenbrand ]

don_resqcapt19 · Oct 19, 2005

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Al,
The word "outlet" has a number of meanings outside of the NEC. The box itself is commonly called an "outlet box", but that has nothing to do with the NEC meaning of the word "outlet". If a word is defined in the code, then that is the only meaning for that word within the code itself. The other uses of that same word outside of the code has no effect on the meaning of the word within the code.
The best example of this problem was corrected a few cycles ago. In the older codes, you were permitted up to 360? of bend between "fittings". This rule was based on the common trade use of the word "fitting" to mean conduit body. The code was changed when a proposal correctly stated that a conduit coupling is a "fitting" per the NEC definition of that word and that the code rule actually permitted 360? of bend between each coupling. In this case even the CMP was not correctly using the NEC definitions.
Don

charlie b · Oct 19, 2005

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by al hildenbrand: When a switch is used as a Controller, Premises Wiring (System) says the wiring internal to a controller is not part of the premises wiring.

There is no wiring internal to a switch!

That last sentence in the definition of a premises wiring system is not talking about switches, because there is no wiring internal to a switch. The wiring internal to a controller would be the connections to the main line contactor, the on/off switch, any pressure, level, or other process switches, auxiliary relays, and indicating lights.

It's that simple.

It's also this simple: A switch is a "wiring device," and that is explicitly included in the definition of a premises wiring system. You cannot escape that fact by merely saying the NEC does not define "wiring device." It doesn't define "current" either. The industry standard interpretation of "wiring devices" includes switches.

Here you go, Mike: This will get the thread over 300!

Can I get confirmation from engineers who have designed jobs and from contractors who have bid jobs, in which the bid documents included requirements for "wiring devices," and in which the "wiring devices" included switches?

al hildenbrand · Oct 19, 2005

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Here you go, Mike: This will get the thread over 300!

al hildenbrand · Oct 19, 2005

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Charlie B.,

What is the definition of "wiring device"?

And, more importantly, how does the definition of wiring device not permit the wiring internal to a controller to be outside of the Premises Wiring (System)?

"Wiring device" appears 11 times in the Code and Commentary. I don't see a definition.

I have complete belief in the veracity of your experience in using Specification Guidelines that sequester snap switches under "wiring devices". But that is not a Code defined term.

As for the "wiring internal to a controller", were it not there, there would be no current path, and the utilization equipment would not be supplied.

jwelectric · Oct 19, 2005

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

We only need 135 more. keep pushing

roger · Oct 19, 2005

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Hello Al, We have to look at the whole wording,

so constructed that they can be installed in flush device boxes or on outlet box covers

Just because a "switch" can be mounted on or even in an oulet box does not change it to an outlet no more than a basketball being used on a soccer field makes it a soccerball, it is still a basketball.

Second point: I'm confused about UL being the arbiter here. I thought the NFPA was the Code Authority?

Notice the wording of 404.14(A)&(B), it is either borrowed from UL or UL borrowed it from the NFPA there must be some type of collusion going on.

Roger

al hildenbrand · Oct 19, 2005

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Roger,

Just because a "switch" can be mounted on or even in an oulet box does not change it to an outlet

I have not been claiming that a switch is an outlet.

My understanding of the definition of Outlet is that it is the point on the premises wiring were current it taken. . .. The switch has nothing to do with it unless it is used as a controller.

Once the switch is used as a controller, the Article 100 Definition of Premises Wiring (System) says that "point" happens again because the controller is not part of the premises wiring.

Current let out of the premises wiring. Current that is to supply utilization equipment. The snap switch (controller) doesn't utilize the energy, the utilization equipment does.

al hildenbrand · Oct 19, 2005

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Charlie B.

2005 NEC
Article 100 Definitions
Controller. A device or group of devices that serves to govern, in some predetermined manner, the electric power delivered to the apparatus to which it is connected.

2005 NEC Handbook Commentary

A controller may be a remote-controlled magnetic contactor, switch, circuit breaker, or device that is normally used to start and stop motors and other apparatus and, in the case of motors, is required to be capable of interrupting the stalled-rotor current of the motor. Stop-and-start stations and similar control circuit components that do not open the power conductors to the motor are not considered controllers.

Click to expand...

charlie b · Oct 19, 2005

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by al hildenbrand: What is the definition of "wiring device"?

Whatever the industry accepts as fitting into that description.

And, more importantly, how does the definition of wiring device not permit the wiring internal to a controller to be outside of the Premises Wiring (System)?

Why would you ask that?

The definition of "premises wiring system" explicitly excludes the wiring inside a controller, and I am not trying to include it.

But a switch has no internal wiring.

It does not matter that one or more books define "controller" in a way that contains the word "switch." The list of things excluded from a premises wiring system does not include switches. That is evident from the simple fact that that list talks about the wiring internal to controllers, and a switch has no internal wiring.

Am I repeating that bit about a switch having no internal wiring too often?

("wiring devices") . . . is not a Code defined term.

True, as I have also said. That does not prohibit the code authors from using the term. Those of us who do not write, but only read the NEC must fall back on some definition. The industry has accepted the notion that the phrase "wiring devices" includes switches, receptacles, phone jacks, and the other things I listed earlier.

As for the "wiring internal to a controller", were it not there, there would be no current path, and the utilization equipment would not be supplied.

The utilization equipment receives current, despite the fact that there is no wiring internal to the switch. There, I said it again.

Please go back and read the definition of "premises wiring system" again, and this time look for the words about the wiring internal to controllers. It is not possible that those words can be interpreted to mean switches. A switch has no internal wires. OK. I'll try to stop saying that.

al hildenbrand · Oct 19, 2005

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Charlie B.,

Originally posted by Charlie B.:
There is no wiring internal to a switch!

"Wiring" is used 400 times in the Code, and, if you can believe the coincidence, is used another 400 times in the Handbook Commentary. This is a very general term.

Even the Definition of Premises Wiring (System) uses "wiring". And if we are to take your meaning, then the wiring device, a switch, that is part of the Premises Wiring (System) has no wiring in it, yet it is part of the Premises Wiring (System) which means it is wiring, but. . .and then a reread and reread and it depends on when I stop reading as to what my final thought is.

The wiring is the path for the current that supplies the utilization equipment.

charlie b · Oct 19, 2005

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

A "switch" is a "wiring device" not because it has wires inside it, but because you connect wires to it. Tell me, is it wrong to use the term "seat belt," on the basis that it contacts your shoulder and lap, but does not contact your "seat"? Some have said so. I say that that strap holds your body in contact with the car's "seat," and so the term "seat belt" is properly descriptive.

The CSI specifications on wiring devices covers, in general, the things you connect wires to (e.g., phone jacks). It also includes some accessory items, such as the cover plates you put over the switches, and I'll acknowledge that there are no wires attached to the plates. I can only guess that plates are also in the "wiring devices" spec section because there is no better place to include such accessory items. Wires, conduits, and outlet boxes are in separate spec sections. I am not tempted to call any of them "wiring devices."

charlie b · Oct 19, 2005

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

By the way, Mike, I have no interest in getting this thread over 300 posts. I am just trying to reach my own 4000 post goal. Then I can retire.

al hildenbrand · Oct 19, 2005

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by Charlie B.:
It does not matter that one or more books define "controller" in a way that contains the word "switch."

These are not "one or more books", lower case, common, ordinary.

This is the Holy Writ, the Fount of All Knowledge, the NEC? itself.

2005 NEC
404.14 Rating and Use of Snap Switches
A) Alternating Current General-Use Snap Switch A form of general-use snap switch suitable only for use on ac circuits for controlling the following: 

(1) Resistive and inductive loads, including electric-discharge lamps, not exceeding the ampere rating of the switch at the voltage involved

(2) Tungsten-filament lamp loads not exceeding the ampere rating of the switch at 120 volts

(3) Motor loads not exceeding 80 percent of the ampere rating of the switch at its rated voltage

There's more. . .but why repeat my point.

Roger, I tip my hat to you for the reference.

al hildenbrand · Oct 19, 2005

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by charlie b:
By the way, Mike, I have no interest in getting this thread over 300 posts. I am just trying to reach my own 4000 post goal. Then I can retire.

ROTFLMAO!!!

You're merciless!!!

al hildenbrand · Oct 19, 2005

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

And just in case I wasn't clear in my citation of 404.14(A). . .note the use of the word "controlling".

al hildenbrand · Oct 19, 2005

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Oh, wait, I repeated myself.

charlie b · Oct 19, 2005

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

It does not matter what book or how many books you find that have a definition of "controller." Let it be the NEC, or the NEC Handbook, or any other Holy Writ ever writ. I concede (and have never argued against) the fact that a switch can be used as a controller. I concede that if you put all the controllers in the world into one room, there would be some controllers that comprise nothing more than a single switch. You can repeat that point as often as you like, and I will agree with it as often as you request me to.

All true. All irrelevant.

The NEC definition of a premises wiring system includes "wiring devices." That phrase includes switches because the industry says so.

The NEC definition of a premises wiring system excludes "wiring internal to (amongst other things) controllers." That phrase does not, cannot relate to switches.

You are hanging your entire argument on the fact that a switch (with no other pieces, parts, or devices) can be used as a controller. I have already conceded that fact. But you are relying on a definition that would, in your interpretation, tell us that the premises wiring system does not include the wiring that is internal to a wall switch.

Let us give the NEC authors more credit for thinking through their words. We all know that the NEC has many instances of confusing, if not downright poor wording. But let us not accuse them of intentionally excluding the (non-existent) wiring inside a switch.

(See how I worked that back in?)

charlie b · Oct 19, 2005

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Hey Mike (and other possible interested bidders): How much am I to bid for restraining myself and not abusing my Moderator's privileges to cut this thread off at 299 posts?

jwelectric · Oct 19, 2005

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by charlie b:
By the way, Mike, I have no interest in getting this thread over 300 posts. I am just trying to reach my own 4000 post goal. Then I can retire.

You go Charlie< You go. Is there is anything I can do to help?

Big oops ... need suggestions

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