Big oops ... need suggestions

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Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

You guys are charmers, every last one o' ya. :D
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

I would like to add a little bit of commentary.

While the AFCI rules dictate protection of "the entire circuit", I believe the real intent of the device is, or was, to reduce fires caused by worn, crushed, bitten, and otherwise-damaged power cords on lamps and appliances.

In other words, the AFCI was introduced to address fires caused by plugged-in loads, power strips, abused extension cords, etc., and not premises wiring. Of course, it never hurts to protect all of the wiring as well.

Opinions?
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by al hildenbrand:
You guys are charmers, every last one o' ya. :D
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On behalf of the entire forum, I'd just like to say:

Aw, shucks! ;)
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by LarryFine:
I would like to add a little bit of commentary.

While the AFCI rules dictate protection of "the entire circuit", I believe the real intent of the device is, or was, to reduce fires caused by worn, crushed, bitten, and otherwise-damaged power cords on lamps and appliances.

In other words, the AFCI was introduced to address fires caused by plugged-in loads, power strips, abused extension cords, etc., and not premises wiring. Of course, it never hurts to protect all of the wiring as well.

Opinions?
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Most of the "worn, crushed, bitten, and otherwise-damaged" wiring I come across is premises wiring, particularly in attics with rodent problems. Next is exposed K&T that has outlived its insulation.
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by peter d:
Originally posted by jeff43222:
Peter is in New England.
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Yeah, that's what you think! Look out your front window. :D
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Just looked out my front window. Saw a guy in a blaze orange muumuu and a sailor hat trying to explain 210.12(B) to my neighbor's dog.

Those men in the white coats with the butterfly net only want to help you, Peter. You should go with them. :D
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by peter d:
Originally posted by LarryFine:
Opinions?
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No, no more opinions. I can't take it any more. That's what got us into this mess in the first place. :D
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Okay, since you insist...

If someone is operating a switch, perhaps damaged in some way, and the person is receiving an electric shock, then I'd say the switch now meets the NEC definition of an outlet.

How's that? :p
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by LarryFine:
Originally posted by peter d:
Originally posted by LarryFine:
Opinions?
Click to expand...
No, no more opinions. I can't take it any more. That's what got us into this mess in the first place. :D
Click to expand...
Okay, since you insist...

If someone is operating a switch, perhaps damaged in some way, and the person is receiving an electric shock, then I'd say the switch now meets the NEC definition of an outlet.

How's that? :D
Click to expand...
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by jeff43222:
Just looked out my front window. Saw a guy in a blaze orange muumuu and a sailor hat trying to explain 210.12(B) to my neighbor's dog.

Those men in the white coats with the butterfly net only want to help you, Peter. You should go with them. :D
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laughabove.gif



Allright, I give up. I'll let them take me now.
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Finally a definitive answer to a perplexing Question,when does a switch become an outlet.
Why didn`t you come up with that 14 pages ago instead you bring someones hope of a dream 300 posts crashing down around thier ankles.
Oh the horror,the humanity of it all
October 20th 2005 a day that will live in infamy :p
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

While the AFCI rules dictate protection of "the entire circuit", I believe the real intent of the device is, or was, to reduce fires caused by worn, crushed, bitten, and otherwise-damaged power cords on lamps and appliances.

In other words, the AFCI was introduced to address fires caused by plugged-in loads, power strips, abused extension cords, etc., and not premises wiring.
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While that is the line that was used by the manufacturers to get the CMP to require AFCIs, the currently available AFCIs provide very limited protection beyond the premises wiring. This fact is the reason that the code will require the use of "combination" type AFCIs starting in 2008. If these new devices actually work as promised, then we will have protection beyond the premises wiring of the house.
Don
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Al,
The definition of outlet has not changed since 1956 and in all that time a debate such as this one to my knoweldge has never been like this one has been
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We didn't have this debate in the past for two reasons...1) prior to 110.12 it didn't make any differece if a switch was a an outlet or not, and 2) I never had someone insist that a switch is an outlet before. :D
Don
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by don_resqcapt19:
I never had someone insist that a switch is an outlet before. :D
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:D Hey! I resemble that remark! :D

Two points. You meant 210.12, right?

I would summarize the switch / outlet equation as: An outlet occurs when a switch, on the premises wiring, is used to control utilization equipment at another outlet on the premises wiring.

Edit to add "equipment" - Al

[ October 20, 2005, 10:24 AM: Message edited by: al hildenbrand ]
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Don`t give up Al keep the faith brotherrrrr.Besides it`s all Jeffs fault anyway.He started this mess :D
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by allenwayne:
it`s all Jeffs fault anyway.He started this mess :D
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Ya!!! And I know where he lives! :D
 
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